NICK NELSON, Mysterious Growing Person

KRAMER

Former challenge facilitator
Joined
Apr 15, 2004
Messages
1,434
A new claim, the first in weeks, I think, from Oregon...

Regarding the following statement made by James Randi in his Oct. 10, 2003 newsletter entry, titled, OREGON NO-VORTEX (PAGE 3 PARAGRAPH 2):

"But the mysterious 'growing person' phenomenon is the one everyone gioes away with talking about, because they can carryu this one with them in the form of photographs - and would the camera lie? Yes."

I will demonstrate that the camera is neutral, only recording what is set before it, regardless of whether it be a real phenomenon, or a deliberate optical trick. I will prove with a camera, using yet to be agreed upon protocols, that the "mysterious growing person"effect as exhibited at some roadside attractions, such as, but not limited to, THE OREGON VORTEX, is a true paranormal (not scientifically explainable)
occurence.

-Nick Nelson


============================================

Dear Nick,

We are in receipt of your Challenge application, which we would be happy to accept if only you would supply us with the necessary data, as per the Challenge rules.

It is clear WHAT you propose to demonstrate, but you have not stated HOW you intend to do so.

So tell us, please, how you propose to demonstrate your claim.

We anxiously await your reply.

-Kramer, JRF Paranormal Claims Dept.
 
Protocol Proposal

Human participants will be chosen from a random group by the testee and the tester. By twos these people will take places facing one another on each end of a platform that has been measured by witnesses who wish to do so. Standard carpenter levels or laser levels can be used to show that the platform is plumb. The levels may be tested to see if they are "on the level" by having witnesses perform the boxing procedure of turning a level end for end, which can quickly expose a rigged, crooked bubble. The tester may bring to the demonstration any instruments he'she feels is needed, such as personal levels and measuring tapes. At no time during the tests will the bottom of one person's shoes be discerningly higher than the bottom of another person's shoes. The tester may even request that people remove their shoes. The participants will stand relaxed but erect on marked positions on the platform without slouching or lifting themselves up on their toes; a condition that either the testee or tester may check at any time.

A camer of any type (or all types) that the testee and tester agree to is placed on a leveled tripod or other device that will lock it into place and not allow it to rotate, tilt, or change heights. The camera will be at an agreed upon distance from the ground (say 4 and a half feet), and it will be placed as close to exactly the same measured distance from each participant as is possible. Heel positions will be marked on both ends of the platform and used to measure the triangulated distance to the camera. The camera focus will be aimed at a spacial point that is the same distance between participants, which will therefore put each of them 90 degrees to the camera axis, so other than when one person is wider than the other, at no time will the camera be closer to one participant than the other. The leveled camera will be set so that the participants' feet and heads are both visible in the frame. Affadavits will be solicited from witnesses and participants to confirm that the above protocols of all physical components were followed, but not for their comments regarding challenge test results.

Even though a slanted background CANNOT affect cameras in the same way as it would with the 3-dimensional aspect of human eyes a curtain or other opaque mono-color backdrop will fill the camera frame beside the participants.

Photographs will be taken of each scene in turn. The shutter will not be tripped by either the testee or tester, but by an agreed upon 3rd person. After the first picture is taken, the participants will change places on the platform, their posture and positions checked, and the shutter will again be tripped. If required, several more participants will undergo the procedure, even trading off partners as the demonstrations progress. (Note: after each photograph is taken by a digital camera the results will be checked on a small LCD screen. Sometimes in these areas electronic devices fail.)

Neither the testee nor the tester shall take up his position on the platform with anyone else (Rule 4: Although for the purposes of checking protocols the tester may wish to investigate the platform by standing on it.) Even though witnesses or participants might verbally express their experiences, such comments will in no way constitute Challenge proof. The determining factor of whether or not people got smaller and larger will be the product of the camera(s) that has been set up in such a way that NO OPTICAL TRICKERY CAN BE POSSIBLE. Proof will be obtained by measuring the people only ON or inside the photographs. No measurements will be physically taken of anyone on the platform to satisfy the testers requirement that no explanations of how the phenomenon works will be accepted (Rule 2).

The film or digital storage devices will be kept in the possession of a third party who will be monitored by both the testee and the tester until the film is developed and/or the digital media is downloaded to a printer, at which time the photographs will be viewed and measured by the tester in the presence of the testee and other witnesses. A ruler, or calipers segmented into fractions of inches or millimeters will be used to measure the same participant in each before and after photo. The points of measurement will be from the bottom of the participants feet to his or her eyes. The eye-level procedure rather than the tops of the heads will be used in case of hats or confusing hair-do's. Both tester and testee will retain copies of the same pictures and will have the right to use them in any manner (Rule 3) provided release forms have been filled out by participants.

The venue for the demonstration will be at the "Montana Vortex, Inc." which is located 13 miles west of Glacier Park on Highway 2.
The venue is an active business and the participants will be volunteer tourists who happen to be visiting the business on the day of the demonstration, and who have paid for a guided tour of the attraction. Any proposed participant(s) can be rejected by either testee or tester for any reason, however neither testee nor tester can remove a passive witness who has paid to be on a tour that the tests may be interrupting. Any proposed participant may decline to participate.

Using the intent of JREF's Rule 2 for himself, the testee will not accept mere explanations or thought experiments purporting to prove that his demonstration was fraudulent. For the purposes of rebuttal if the tester choses to put on his own demonstration; like the example of the spice jars in the "Oregon No-Vortex" newsletter article, he must do so at a neutral (non "vortex") location, perhaps in his own backyard or on a soundstage. In such a case the tester must show that he adhered to the very same protocols to which the testee was held. But, just because something MIGHT BE accomplished by trickery does not mean that everything IS done by trickery. Even if the "Shrink and Grow" effect can somehow be emulated using stage magic "smoke & mirrors" (UNDER THE SAME RESTRICTIONS TO WHICH THE TESTEE WAS HELD), causing the camera to "lie", the tester must still expose to witnesses the same "smoke" or the same "mirror", or same other optical or mechanical deception employed by the testee. Therefore, to PROVE deception the tester must find and expose a conventional, NOT paranormal trick using only the testees ACTUAL DEMONSTRATION.

The testee understands Rule 6.

-Nick Nelson
 
Dear Mr. Nelson,

We're returning your protocol to you with all the embellishments removed and the essential points referred to and edited by Randi. Non-essential factors have been eliminated, and some essential provisions have been added. Since any person involved in this proposed test could be referred to as a “participant,” we have substituted the term, “subject” for any person photographed.

Please let us know your thoughts regarding our revisions and additions.

-Kramer, JREF Paranormal Claims Dept.

=============================================

Human subjects will be chosen from among volunteer tourists who are visiting the "Montana Vortex, Inc.", on the day of the demonstration, by the testee and the tester.

How many persons? See ahead.

By twos these subjects will take places facing one another on each end of a platform. A vertical calibrated scale – “reference scale” – for each person will be provided in each scene, located immediately behind each subject.

A digital camera will be placed on a tripod at an agreed-upon distance from the ground at the same measured distance from each person.


Still camera? Video camera?

Heel positions will be marked on both ends of the platform and used to measure the distance to the camera.

Pairs of photographs will be taken of each scene in turn. (See next provision.)


What is meant by “each scene”? Do these come in pairs?

After the first picture of each pair of subjects is taken, the subjects will change places on the platform, their posture and positions will be checked, and the shutter will again be tripped. Thus, two consecutive photos will be taken of each pair of subjects, constituting an individual “photo set.”

If required, several more subjects will undergo the procedure, each pair of subjects producing another photo set.


What do you mean here by “if required”? Unless you suggest that we use only one pair of subjects, of course more than one pair of photos will be taken. Otherwise, why would more than two subjects be needed?

Neither the testee nor the tester shall take a position on the platform with anyone else (Rule 4)…

What is this reference to Rule 4? It does not apply here.

The determining evidence of whether or not people got smaller and larger will be found solely in the photos made by the camera that has been set up.

(No measurements will be physically taken of anyone on the platform to satisfy the tester's requirement that no explanations of how the phenomenon works will be accepted (Rule 2)


Wrong. All the subjects will be measured for height. And, this has nothing to do with Rule 2. This provision will read:

Height measurements will be physically taken of all subjects who appear on the platform.

Digital copies of the digital storage devices will be prepared on the scene and provided to all participants who wish to have them.

In prints of each pair of photos, a ruler will be used to measure the same subject, and the position of each subject relative to the calibrated reference scale will be recorded. The actual measurement on the prints of the reference scales in each photo will also be checked, and must be identical in each case. The points of measurement to determine the physical height of each subject will be from the bottom of the subject's feet to his or her eyes.

The venue for the demonstration will be at the "Montana Vortex, Inc.", which is located 13 miles west of Glacier National Park on Highway 2.
 
Kramer,

Please thank Mr. Randi for his speedy reply in this matter.

I must devote my attention on another matter for a few days but will get back to you ASAP with my thoughts. However, for openers I have no objection to changing "participant" to "Subject".

I also think it good that any final document describing this matter should be free of lengthy "embellishments", although we may debate the meaning of this word in some circumstances.

Regards,
Nick Nelson


===========================================

OK, Mr. Nelson. I look forward to your comments.
 
The Applicant's Motivation is Made Clear

Kramer,

I made the deadline, and now back to our business.

Comments on JREF protocol revisions follow:

It is wise to substitute the word, "subject" for the word "participant". Though I may comment on them, references to my interpretation of specific Challenge rules by number will not be part of the protocols. In places, even though there is basic agreement, I revised the language so that it is more precise.
Some points of disagreement are based on things that JREF seems to consider "embellishments", or "non-essential factors".

As a writer I know information should be conveyed in few words, but though, "Brevity is the soul of wit," in formal agreements a bit of embellishment might prevent later misunderstandings.

In this regard, Kramer, I have questions you may pass on; like does JREF consider making sure the demonstration platform is level an embellishment or non-essential? What is the response if I demand that no one be allowed to lay a level on the platform, or if I say that a curtain preventing influence of a crooked background would NOT be allowed?

Why are suggested protocols deleted that ostensibly prevent the testee from cheating? I'm bemused. But I suppose, since I did not demand these things, and do not claim mind reading, I shall remain ignorant of the answers.


How many persons?

As many persons as deemed useful by the testee and tester at the site. Does the tester wish to stipulate an absolute number?

By twos these subjects will take places facing one another on each end of a platform. A vertical calibrated scale – “reference scale” – for each person will be provided in each scene, located immediately behind each subject.

Since subjects will be facing one another, the phrase, "...immediately behind each subject." is confusing. From a camera's point of view reference poles placed BESIDE the subjects could be interpreted as being behind them (see rewrite). Actually, I welcome this addition since it now occurs to me that such reference devices will betray any slumping and stretching by subjects who might try to fudge the test.

Rewrite:

By twos these subjects will take places facing one another on each end of a level platform. A vertical calibrated scale - "reference scale" - for each person will be provided in each scene, and be located immediately at each subject's back. The calibration marks on each pole will match a third calibrated rod or tape, and the marks will be an identical distance above the platform surface.

A digital camera will be placed on a tripod at an agreed-upon distance from the ground at the same measured distance from each person.


Still camera? Video camera?

A still camera will be simpler for the purpose of making copies. Digital is fine, however it is wise to immediately check each photo in the LCD screen to confirm a sharp image.

Heel positions will be marked on both ends of the platform and used to measure the distance to the camera.

Pairs of photographs will be taken of each scene in turn. (See next provision.)


What is meant by “each scene”? Do these come in pairs?

Each scene means each single photograph. Yes, the subject's photos come in pairs.

After the first picture of each pair of subjects is taken, the subjects will change places on the platform, their posture and positions will be checked, and the shutter will again be tripped. Thus, two consecutive photos will be taken of each pair of subjects, constituting an individual “photo set.”

If required, several more subjects will undergo the procedure, each pair of subjects producing another photo set.


What does Nelson mean here by “if required”?

Kramer, collect the million if you correctly relayed my thoughts!

Unless he suggests that we use only one pair of subjects, of course more than one pair of photos will be taken. Otherwise, why would more than two subjects be needed?

This is covered by the earlier statement regarding how many persons will be required. The, "If required...", sentence is purged from the document.

Neither the testee nor the tester shall take a position on the platform with anyone else (Rule 4)…


What is this reference to Rule 4? It does not apply here.

Part of #4 reads, "...will not interact with the materials used". This is a small difference of opinion that also does not apply here. Does the tester wish to leave the sentence in or take it out (sans reference to Rule 4)? Your choice.

The determining evidence of whether or not people got smaller and larger will be found solely in the photos made by the camera that has been set up.

(No measurements will be physically taken of anyone on the platform to satisfy the tester's requirement that no explanations of how the phenomenon works will be accepted (Rule 2).


Wrong. All the subjects will be measured for height. And, this has nothing to do with Rule 2.

Part of Rule 2, "We have no interest in theories or explanations of how the claimed powers might work." Measuring subjects on the platform AND on the photos will demonstrate a paradox that may demand a theory or explanation for which JREF says it has no interest.

This provision will read;

Height measurements will be physically taken of all subjects who appear on the platform.


Does this sentence mean that JREF's representative will "interact" with the subjects and material used by mounting the platform to determine their heights one by one with a tape measure, or does it simply reiterate the prior demand that the vertical height reference poles on the platform be used as a measurement, and also the coming demand that such measurements be recorded and be identical in all cases? I suggest removal of this non-essential sentence, or at least a revision for clarity. But if the tester wants to drag out the proceedings, measure away. Perhaps instead: Height measurements will be noted of all subjects against the vertical references on the platform. Of course, this is redundant, so If used here we can eliminate this reference in other places in the document where the same meaning shows up.

Digital copies of the digital storage devices will be prepared on the scene and provided to all participants who wish to have them.

Question: The word participants I assume refers to testee and tester, not subjects? The actual scene, or location of the platform is outdoors in a forest and weather on the day of demonstration is naturally, unpredictable. Does the requirement of copies being prepared on the scene mean at the platform location, or could it be done in the on-site business office? I amend this sentence to read:

Digital RW-only disks and printed copies of the digital storage devices will be prepared on the property of the "Montana Vortex, Inc.", and then provided to all participants who wish to have them.

In prints of each pair of photos, a ruler will be used to measure the same subject, and the position of each subject relative to the calibrated reference scale will be recorded. The actual measurement on the prints of the reference scales in each photo will also be checked, and must be identical in each case. Mention here of the subject's height recorded against the vertical reference is redundant (second paragraph), and therefore non-essential. Which do you wish to let stand? The points of measurement to determine the physical height of each subject in the photos will be from the bottom of the subject's feet to his or her eyes.

The venue for the demonstration will be at the "Montana Vortex, Inc.", which is located 13 miles west of Glacier National Park on Highway 2.

The following is a clean draft of a the proposed full statement of protocols for the demonstration based on the above email discussion.

INCENTIVE:
A large monetary prize offered for something I can do.

MOTIVATION:
In his October 10, 2003 newsletter, James Randi in an article titled, "Oregon No-Vortex" (page 3, paragraph 2), stated, "But the mysterious 'growing person' phenomenon is the one everyone goes away with talking about, because they can carry this one with them in the form of photographs - and would the camera lie? Yes."

INTENT:
I will show that a camera only "lies" when a lie is set before it. Using strict protocols that force a camera to record the truth I will demonstrate that the "mysterious growing person" effect (as well as inanimate objects; like clothing on the person) that are exhibited at some roadside attractions, such as, but not limited to, "The Oregon Vortex, is a true paranormal (not scientifically explainable) occurrence.

PROTOCOLS: (Herein Nick Nelson will be known as, Testee, and the JREF as, Tester)

On the day of the demonstration Testee and Tester will chose volunteer human subjects from among customers who are visiting the "Montana Vortex, Inc.". The amount of people used in the demonstrations will depend on the number of demonstrations agreed upon at the site.

By twos these subjects will take places facing one another on each end of a level platform. A vertically plumb calibrated scale - "reference scale" - for each person will be permanently installed at each end of the platform, which will put them immediately at each subject's back. The calibration marks on each pole will match a third rod or tape of the same calibration, and the marks will be an identical distance above the platform's surface.

A digital still camera will be placed on a tripod at an agreed-upon distance from the ground at the same measured distance from each person.

Heel positions will be marked on both ends of the platform and used to measure the distance to the camera.

After the first picture of each pair of subjects is taken, the subjects will change places on the platform, their posture and positions will be checked, and the shutter will again be tripped. Thus, two consecutive photos will be taken of each pair of subjects, constituting an individual "photo set".

Neither Testee nor Tester will take a position on the platform with anyone else.

The determining evidence of whether or not people changed sizes will be found solely in the photos made by the camera that has been set up.

Photos of subjects who do not measure the same against each calibrated vertical scale will be deleted from the test results. Photos of a subject that registers a height change but his or her partner does not, will be eliminated from the test. (In either of these cases there could have been undetected cheating.)

Digital RW-only disks and printed copies of the digital storage devices will be prepared on the property of the "Montana Vortex, Inc.", and then provided to all participants who wish to have them.

In prints of each pair of photos, a ruler will be used to measure the same subject, and the position of each subject relative to the calibrated reference scale will be recorded. The points of measurement to determine the physical height of each subject in the photos will be from the bottom of the subject's feet to his or her eyes.

The venue for the demonstration will be at the "Montana Vortex, Inc.", which is located 13 miles west of Glacier National Park on Highway 2.


==============================================

Dear Mr. Nelson,

Hmmmm...I think I can see fairly clearly where this is going.

In answer to the questions you wrongly assume you will remain ignorant of the answers to, I offer you the following:

The JREF does consider making sure the platform is level to be an essential patrt of the proceedings.

If you demand that no one be allowed to lay level on the platform, we will not accept the protocol, your file will be closed, and your claim will NOT be tested.


As many persons as deemed useful by the testee and tester at the site. Does the tester wish to stipulate an absolute number?

[I[Yes; determing the number of participants is important.

Mr. Nelson, I'm not sure it's worth our time (meaning yours AND ours) to continue if you think you can win the Million Dollars via some form of photographic effect that makes the subject appear to be something other than what it is.

The JREF Challenge is awarded for a demonstration of truly paranormal ability. It is NOT awarded for a photographic demonstration of an illusion. I think you are misunderstanding (or misrepresenting, based upon a clever interpretation of the Challenge rules, which you have demonstrated explicit knowledge of) the very nature of the JREF Challenge.

-Kramer, JREF Paranormal Claims Dept.[/I]
 
Uh-Oh

Dear Mr. Nelson,

Hmmmm...I think I can see fairly clearly where this is going.


I think you misread, or at least jumped to a conclusion without reading further. Seeing clearly often depends on focus.

In answer to the questions you wrongly assume you will remain ignorant of the answers to, I offer you the following:
The JREF does consider making sure the platform is level to be an essential part of the proceedings.


GOOD!
But the genesis of my remarks was that in the first revision JREF made to my initial offering, I explicitly mentioned that the platform will be checked to show that it is level. This requirement BY ME was evidently edited out by you folks. My TRUE question was to find out why you did not include it in your first revision? Therefore you wrongly assume that MY question is somehow answered by the above statement. A fair answer might have been, "We overlooked it. Thanks for bringing it to our attention." "Oops!" would have been a good answer.


If you demand that no one be allowed to lay level* on the platform, we will not accept the protocol, your file will be closed, and your claim will NOT be tested.

I made no such actual demand, and no such demand will be made by me. This response wrongly assumes the meaning of my comments. Is your day job that of a politician? This last question is rhetorical, of course.

As many persons as deemed useful by the testee and tester at the site. Does the tester wish to stipulate an absolute number?


Yes; determing the number of participants is important.

All right, let's consider numbers. Will 10 subjects or 5 photo sets be okay? Or, perhaps 20 subjects and 10 photo sets be better? More or less? Your turn.

Mr. Nelson, I'm not sure it's worth our time (meaning yours AND ours) to continue if you think you can win the Million Dollars via some form of photographic effect that makes the subject appear to be something other than what it is.

Not only WOULD I be wasting time, but should I would also be deservingly judged an idiot if tried to run some sort of deceptive "photographic effect" by the best debunker in the business. But, if you think such is the case you need to take the challenge just to make an example of me.

The JREF Challenge is awarded for a demonstration of truly paranormal ability.

Odd, I thought it had never been awarded? The ability under consideration here is something that is scientifically unexplainable, therefore PARAnormal. The anomalous nature of SOME of these roadside "mystery spots" have stumped many legitimate scientists, a couple of whom I once assisted. I've noticed that in the main real scientists when confronted by a true mystery don't make very good detectives. When observing something they can't figure out, their credo seems to be, don't publicly mention what you've been doing, save the reputation, tenure, non-related grants, and run like hell. Scientists don't even make good skeptics, but they also don't seem to approach something about which they know nothing, while proclaiming to know everything...they just hide.

It is NOT awarded for a photographic demonstration of an illusion.

Perhaps you already think me an idiot? If this is an illusion it's Nature's illusion, and no one has yet found out how "she" does it. The one thing I know is that "she" does not do it by sneaking one spice jar closer to the camera than the other spice jar.

I think you are misunderstanding (or misrepresenting, based upon a clever interpretation of the Challenge rules, which you have demonstrated explicit knowledge of) the very nature of the JREF Challenge.

I'm unequivocally certain the Challenge rules are far, far more clever than my humble interpretations. Yes, I've been parsing your rather interesting document. I've been testing to see if it's possible to disarm a few land mines. At any rate, I've decided that after this email the parsing is done. I've learned most of what I suspected, and will no longer, probe, explain, or "embellish", unless I'm asked. BTW, your prepositions need work.

During the six plus decades I've roamed this Planet the one thing I learned well was if I can't have fun doing what I'm doing, then it's time to do something else. So, Kramer (Ms or Mr.) lighten up, or, as my old grandmother used to say to me, that sneer will be fixed on your face. ;-)

From now on it's essential business. I propose, you reject, change, or accept. You propose, I reject, change, or accept.

I will question for clarity, and so will you. Have a splendid day,

Nick Nelson


=============================================

Dear Mr. Nelson,

Thank you, but we are not quite ready to reject your claim just yet. If you wish to withdraw it, however, please feel free to do so.

I do NOT think that you are an idiot. Far from it. You are MUCH smarter than I am, in fact. That is quite certain.

Regarding your comment about the Challenge rules being "clever", I think I am smart enough to understand what you meant to infer by that statement, and I will offer no response to it here.

I assure you that I am in receipt of your numerous criticisms, and I assure you that they have been heard.

I now suggest that we begin anew, and I agree with you that "essential business ONLY" is a good way to proceed.
Perhaps you ought to have begun that way, instead of "probing", or looking for things you "already suspect".

At this point, I find it prudent to direct your attention to http://www.randi.org/research/faq.html#6.1 (and ALL of Point # 6) and ask you to refrain from offering any further advice regarding what you perceive to be my "sneer". You misread me, sir, and I believe that if you truly wish to see your claim tested, it is you yourself who must at this pioint in time "lighten up", and begin negotiating in good faith. I may indeed have overlooked certain points in our correspondence (as I have numerous claims on my desk at this time and must beg your forgiveness for any such errors), but there is really no need for you to take the position you have taken regarding those oversights.

And I might ask, If (as the tone of your correspondence here strongly suggests) you have suspicions about the JREF or the Challenge itself, why did you apply? This, of course, is a rhetorical question - one that shall answer itself when your claim is either tested, or rejected. How these matters conclude themselves is entirely up to you.

I ask that in response to this email you now please send ONLY your revised protocol for Randi's perusal, without further comment. It is the best way, I think, to move your claim forward and successfully conclude the protocol negotiations stage of the Challenge, presuming once again that this is what you wished to see happen when you chose to apply.

My goal is to see your claim tested. I would now like to see both of work toward that goal, and leave all the counterproductive banter behind. I will get back to you with Randi's response at the earliest possible time.

Thanks For Your Continued Interest,
Kramer, JREF Paranormal Claims Dept.

p.s. ten (10) "subjects" will do just fine.
 
A Confession

Kramer,

Please understand that if these demonstrations are carried out all resonable costs of items covered in Point #6 will be incurred By the Montana Vortex, Inc. These expenses will be assured prior to any representive of JREF departing for Montana.

I will also take this opportunity to inform you that I am now representing the owners of the Montana Vortex just as you act as a go-between for James Randi. My time is donated, so you see how it is that I can have fun at this. The owners gave me the responsibility to carry out these negotations, and then whatever you and I settle on will be what they use to decide if the demonstrations on their property will go ahead. Should these tests be carried out, I will travel to the Kalispell, Montana area and conduct their side of the proceedings.

When I deliver our agreement to the owners it will be accompanied with my opinion as to what I believe their chances of success are. Then it's up to them to take the gamble.

I suggest we negotate last the meaning of what I called "resonable costs" (things like number of people, type of air fare, limiting costs of meals, types of lodging, length of stay, and any side trips; like a jaunt up to Glacier Park in a rental car not counting, etc.). Let's see if we can agree on protocols for the test first.

- Nick Nelson


===========================================

Dear Nick,

I was NOT directing you to Rule #6 of the Challenge. Apparently you did not read the link, which was directed to Point #6 of the Challenge FAQ.

No one can apply on behalf of someone else. We mistakenly assumed that you applied on behalf of yourself, as per the Challenge rules. Thank you for correcting us in that regard.

The JREF negotiates directly with those making the decisions. If you are stating that you are acting on behalf of others, and that once you and I are done with weeks of negotiations you must then present it to your employers for approval, then it is clear that we are all wasting our time. Tell those in control to submit an application, if they wish to proceed.

If that is their choice, they may then, if they wish, assign you as their representative at the test.

Additionally, we have decided conclusively that your claim is NOT a paranormal one. The only way to reverse this decision is ff your revised claim will state that people will actually shrink or grow. That, sir, IS a paranormal claim. In that case, no photographic evidence would be acceptable, and each person must be measured, literally.

If you are only claiming that the photographic effect will support the Montana Vortex illusion, we must reject your claim.

And to correct your erroneous assumption, I am NOT a "go-between" of James Randi. I am an employee of the JREF who has been assigned the task of deciphering which Challenge claims are truly paranormal, and which are not, and also to oversee that protocol negotiations process. I hope this clarifies matters for you.

Also, it's nice to know that you are having fun with this, but I assure you, we take the matter of investigating paranormal claims VERY seriously, so please do not waste our time if your true motive in all of this is to provide your people with a good promotional tool. That is NOT the purpose or intent of the JREF Challenge.

We are here to investigate paranormal claims and promote critical thinking. We are not a promotional firm.
 
A Proposal to the Applicant

Hello Again Nick,

Upon deeper consideration, we have come upon a manner of testing your claim that would be acceptable to us and make your claim eligible for the JREF Challenge, as follows:

So long as you agree to use a normal lens (NO WIDE ANGLE LENS IS ACCEPTABLE), and so long as the two subjects in the picture are the exact same distance from the camera, we will agree to test your claim.

Will you agree to this?

-Kramer, JREF

p.s. forget about what I wrote yesterday regarding the problems with your application. We'll accept your claim regardless of who you work for, and regardless of whose protocol approval is required.
 
My main interests in life don't revolve around photography, so I have an ignorance about much of the hardware. For instance, we own a digital camera; a Toshiba bought off the shelf for a hundred and fifty bucks that my wife mostly uses to take pictures of rocks, and I have no idea what kind of lens it has. It will zoom out to about 3 power but I assume it has a normal lens? It took two trips to the computer store to figure out how to get the images into this old clunker of a computer. I can't go anywhere with this thing without dragging along the instruction booklet, which I mostly only half understand. I prefer to use a throw-away film camera for my three photos a year, so I have to do some research about why a wide angle lens might be an issue ... or perhaps why a normal lens is preferred. I need to talk to a camera guy about the differences in wide angle from normal. I'll get back to you.

Nick Nelson


==============================================

No problem, Nick. Our investigators will bring the necessary photographic gear to the Vortex.

You need not worry yourself in the least about this issue.
 
Apparently a wide angle lens, squashes or distorts that which it helps record. Even though it would "squash" everything equally, I wouldn't want to use it either. And I wasn't offering my little camera as the record keeper.

I agree that only a normal lens be used.

-Nick Nelson


============================================

OK then.

Do you also agree that each of the two subjects must be stationed at precisely the same distance from the lens at all times?

This distance must be measured for total accuracy prior to each photograph being taken.
 
After a thorough reading of Point #6 I wonder if I dare comment? Ah, well, you asked.
Let's see ... I do regard your position as one of a go-between. It's a common practice in business or government to have people at the counter who's job is PARTLY to protect the boss from aggravation. For instance, try to get an audience with the principal to talk about a bitch you have about how your kid is being treated at school. It's normal, nothing about which to take umbrage.

I regret the inference I made regarding the "sneer" I heard in your written words. The word I wanted to use was, smirk. WAIT! I obviously don't know you, so maybe I incorrectly interpreted some of your phrasing as having a nose-in-the-air quality. But think about what your job entails ... some of the correspondence you deal with comes from obvious nut cases. It has to make you cringe. And no one in the history of Mr. Randi's challenge, going back to his wallet-worn $10,000 check has ever collected. I see your boss as a supremely confident man who seems to absolutely believe that no such thing as a paranormal anything exists, and I'll bet it rubs off on the help. It therefore seems to me that it's likely there are some mighty big egos down there at the JREF. There's nothing wrong with a big ego, (wish I had one) but it does make it difficult to sound neutral. If we ever have the opportunity to sit down and have an off-the-record beer together, Kramer, and I learn I "heard" incorrectly, I will apologize (but no matter what, I hold proof that you have a problem with prepositions).

About the correspondence of testing my claim: I originally took great pains to build a proposal that I thought contained every safeguard that I believed JREF could possibly demand, right down to including how to test a level to make sure it did not have a crooked bubble. My intent was to avoid mistakes, but most of my effort was (arrogantly I thought) dismissed as embellishment and non-essential. So, I went on defense. Again, if I learn I was in error, I will apologize.

Years of experience with the phenomenon in question tells me that James Randi didn't know what he was writing about in much of his, "Oregon No-Vortex" newsletter article. I'm confident of this opinion, not because I know anything at all about his character, but because I'm confident of my knowledge. My choices were that he didn't know, or he took the opposite side of the argument just to be arbitrary, which doesn't seem likely. I wouldn't be surprised to learn that you folks have similar opinions about me in this regard, and may think I am either naive or an overconfident charlatan. I've helped lift thousands of eyebrows with this "shrink and grow" phenomenon, and had I ever thought I was showing people something phony; like that which was once badly done at the so-called Miner's Haunted Shack at Knott's Berry Farm, or the Casa Magnetica attractions at the Six Flags Amusement Parks, or was promoting as real an Ames Room such as found at the Exploratorium in San Francisco, I would have gotten out of this business long ago. There are certainly fakes out there that DO use the same optical tricks Mr. Randi wrote about, but they are ridiculously easy to identify. I am aware of them, have visited some of them, and after years of travel and research I know without doubt there are also a few places that do not have to rely on trickery.

I do have a great lament about the true anomalies, however, which is that every one of the attractions employ a crooked shack on a side hill. If I owned one of these places the slanted house would be torn down, because it emboldens dedicated debunkers, allowing them to pronounce everything a fake without investigation of anything. In the past, I have had huge "fun" engaging some folks in on-site debates, and have suffered truly astoundingly silly arguments that have been made with serious straight faces. I have been accused of bending my knees inside my trousers, and then straightening them still hidden inside my pants! After I've rolled up my pant's legs the argument turns to a bent tree limb half a block away. People have demanded that the platform is tilted uphill because they saw a prop beneath the "high" end, but almost no one took my invitation to put a level on it to see that it had been propped up to correct for the ground that was sloped down. Some arguments have been so convoluted and made so little sense that I can't do them justice by trying to repeat them. A stage magician who was playing a nearby casino convention center told me it was the best act of the type he'd ever seen, and he said he would figure out how I did it, put it in his act, and then comp me a ticket. That was five years ago...

I long ago gave up hope of changing minds that have made up their minds not to change (I know, that sounds like ego talk, but it's only a fact speaking in my own mind). What I truly desire is that this challenge will help promote real scientific interest in these areas. It is my belief that answers to some of humanity's needs, such as energy are buried in the strange, unbelievable physics found in them. If a million extra dollars came my way from ANY source I would use the bulk of it to goad university science departments to pay attention, and the new owners of the Montana incongruity are of like minds. OH, and I beg your pardon, I should have said that I am acting WITH the owners, rather than FOR them, but I am truly a go-between because they trust my experience and knowledge. Since they would be paying expenses for the test they do claim the right to turn down anything they may consider excessive. I would never have started this process on my own, partly because I can't afford RULE #6 (and I'm sure the other half of my community property would have had something negative to say as well).

I hope these comments have chipped off a bit of the enormity from your curiosity.

Nick Nelson


=============================================

Fair enough, Nick. Fair enough.

There is, however, one last vestige of curiosity I must confess to, and I inquire the following:

Do you actually believe that people really are shrinking and growing at the Montana Vortex?

Please do not take this question as a confrontational one.
I simply want to be sure of what you believe is taking place here.
 
Kramer,

I wouldn't have it any other way.

I agree that the camera will be the same distance from the two subjects.

Would you accept that the distance from the subjects heels be measured to the camera on the ground using a plumb bob hanging directly under the leveled tripod as a marker?

Measuring across distance to the elevated lens could a bit tricky considering the natural sway of the tape.

-Nick Nelson


=============================================

Hello Nick,

From the base of the tripod to the tip of the subject's toes ought to be fine, so long as the spot the subject stands on is marked, like a shoe print. Measurement can be done with a tape measure.

Keep in mind that the JREF does NOT conduct Challenge tests. We only observe.

Do you think it's time to consult your superiors in an effort to see if they will approve this?

I do think we need to know whether or not we are wasting our time here before proceeding further, and I don't see any significant difficulties with the protocol, at this point. Do you?
 
Ah, Kramer, what a question you ask! I infer no confrontation, but being a true skeptic, I wonder what swims below the water's surface. Even so...

The key word is, "...believe...". If you knew me well you would know that I disdain giving things names, especially things that have what seems to be a tenuous existence. For instance the word used to describe these places, "vortex", is something of a misnomer, but I use it because everyone else uses it. I'm sitting in a chair; a thing whose name you and I age on so you will know I'm not sitting on a rock. I also distrust absolutes and qualify way more than is necessary. Some it seems call this, embellishment. I know the phenomenon in question occurs, but to answer your question means I must use language that can be attacked as "convenient"; as, "Isn't it convenient that measuring rods shrink along with the people?"

I know that by using the swinging pendulum method that gravity is almost exactly ten percent less at the Oregon anomaly than most of the rest of the Planet. I was there and helped set up these measurements that were conducted by a man who's degrees cover a fair expanse of wall. When he reported his conclusions that gravity's fall in the Vortex was a little more than 29 feet per second per second, he used !!!!! this many exclamation marks. He was a true skeptic, also. With this fact in the box, and with Einstein as an authority one's mass or density has to be taken into account in these areas. Do all the spaces between the atoms and molecules in my body increase or decrease as I move across "vortex" demarcation lines, thus providing a true mass change? Some would say that this can be the only explanation and I lean that way, but I know of other theories including the possibility that time itself is affected inside these incongruities. Since time and distance in the sidereal sense are almost interchangeable it could be that I'm not truly growing or shrinking but am simply (if can I use this word) seen a few feet in time further away that I should be in terms of the 186,000+ mps speed of light. But if time is the explanation then why do eye levels change on level surfaces? Any surveyor or engineer will argue that this is not supposed to be possible. There are other things going on inside the "vortexes"(which are highly dynamic anomalies); like ground points that I call induction spots where magnets spin when hung over them, but that's for electrical engineers to figure out one of these days. These and other things are all just theoretical explanations, in which I think the JREF has stated it has no interest.

If I say that I believe the phenomenon is a literal mass change, or even if I avow a belief that the time change theory is true, I am only stating a belief, which rightly has no standing in science. But even so, I do not have to fall back on belief to know that the phenomenon is real, and that the phenomenon is not explainable by science, therefore, PARAnormal. If scientists actually step in one of these days and determine one or the other of these theories as true, will that affect the Challenge? If MIT tomorrow announces it has perfected a device that actually reads minds will the JEFF have to retroactively award monetary claims to all "mind readers" that earlier didn't pass the tests? I know the questions are hypothetical and don't require answers, but doesn't the scientific method always begin with hypothesis? Science learns new things everyday, and one only has to examine what was "known" in the last third of the 19th Century to realize that sometimes Science has to be dragged kicking and screaming to new conclusions.

So, my new adversarial friend, if you want to know tiny details of some of what I have found I refer you to the Internet. I can't imagine you guys as being so inept that you haven't already typed my name into a search engine, but if not and curiosity still itches....

Nick Nelson


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We've seen all your stuff on the internet, Nick. Thanks for your reply.
 
Getting Somewhere? Or not?

Hi Kramer,

I will talk to my friends at the Montana Vortex and tell them the state of these negotiations. After that I want them to deal directly with you regarding scheduling and expenses. If they agree with that I will give you their email address so that you can contact them (unless you give me your actual address that I can forward to them).

So long as we agree on the central proposition that the subjects will be the same distance from the camera I see no overt problem with the protocols Most of the other things I guess I will have to see as superfluous; like a level platform. You must know, and if not you then Mr. Randy has to know, that even if the platform were set at a radical grade two people of the same height would still measure the same size from foot to head in a photograph. The camera, unlike the eye, is not fooled by such a device, and the same is true of funny looking backdrops; the most horribly tilted backgrounds such as was once done at Knott's Berry Farm in California doesn't make a dime's worth of difference to a camera.

There's a part of me that wants everything spelled out in meticulous detail. For instance, our earlier tentative agreement stated that the measurement would be from the subjects heels rather than toes as you stated here (some people have longer feet than others), but if that's the way you want it...okay. These small things come from a part of me that has been framed by having been questioned across years of dealing with people in the craziest, most niggling ways imaginable. I suppose that's the same part of me that cringes at phrases such as, "...your superiors..". So, please let me state one more time: IN THIS MATTER I do not work for the owners of the Montana Vortex. We once did have one of those what-if discussions regarding dispensation of the prize money, and the cool-headed agreement reached is that we postpone any sort of final decision, because at the time we felt the conversation was dealing with pies-in-the-sky. Anyway, that's between me and them.

I'll get back to you when I hear from the owners.

Nick Nelson


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OK, Nick.
 
Claim REJECTED -

Hi Kramer,

The owners of the Montana Vortex are Joe and Ali Hauser.
You will be dealing with Joe regarding scheduling of the test and expenses. His email address is:jhauser@******.us

He is expecting you to contact him. For his records, please reiterate for him the protocols to which you and I have agreed.

If you wish you may cc me with your conversations.

It's been interesting, and if the expenses aren't to harsh for Joe and Ali, it may get even more so.

Cheers, Nick Nelson


============================================

OK, Nick. Now you're putting ME to work on YOUR claim. No can do. YOU are the applicant, and the things you want me to do are YOUR responsibility. This matter has become ridiculous.

It is now abundantly clear to us that you have taken advantage of the JREF Challenge and wasted the limited time and resources we have to offer. Your application has been REJECTED.

Please tell Joe & Ali that they can certainly feel free to contact me if they wish to proceed from the point at which you left off.

Tell them to submit an application, too, if they wish to become applicants. I will not contact them.

-Kramer, JREF
 
Nick's most recent email...

Kramer, thank you for the last few weeks enlightenment.

Most of all thank you for this particular email. I spent much of yesterday writing three pages of rebuttals, but then after a night's rest I realized what was really happening. I scrapped most of the rambling three pages and will here encapsulate:


----- Original Message -----
From: Kramer
To: Nicholas Nelson
Sent: Monday, May 23, 2005 10:21 AM
Subject: Re: Kramer, JREF

Tell your bosses to apply for the Challenge if they want the test to take place. They can use the protocol you worked on. The process would be VERY simple. All they have to do is APPLY.


I'll tell them, but I have told you, now for the THIRD time, that I do NOT work FOR the owners of the Montana Vortex in this matter. You choose to continually ignore my word. Without any knowledge you evidently think I am lying. This is confusing.

Did you really think I'd contact THEM? Come on, Nick. It's YOUR claim, but you wanted ME to do the work?

Yes. You said, "OK Nick," to the email that SUGGESTED you contact them. You needed do nothing other than say no to the suggestion. The second sentence in this statement really confused me. You would have had to do the same amount of WORK regardless of with whom you dealt???

And if they were in then loop in this affair, why do I have to send the protocol anyway?

Actually, a good point, but all you needed to do was say, no. It is apparent that you either deliberately misled me with the, "OK, Nick" statement, or you do incredibly sloppy work by not reading an entire document. Perhaps you make these mistakes because you are simply just overwhelmed with work? Maybe you need to apply to the JREF for an assistant?

Obviously you've been doing this on your own without their approval, and now you want ME to make it all happen.

(Good grief! Turn me in then. Expose me to my ignorant employers. Get me fired from a paying job I DON'T HOLD, Jeeze)

This last statement of yours finally caused my EUREKA moment that drove away the confusion. It demonstrates graphically that you ACTUALLY BELIEVE I've been doing this against my "bosses" approval. You really DO believe the silliness in your message, even though the above sentence read in context has absolutely no logical content. This now clears up my confusion about your contention that I wanted you to do my work. By work, I thought you were referencing the work you would be doing in setting up schedules and expenses no matter with whom you worked. But no (follow the bouncing ball), first, you evidently are convinced I covered up that I work FOR the Hauser's, but second, that I also work FOR them (WITHOUT THEIR KNOWLEDGE?), causing you to think I was setting up the protocols without their approval, and third, you seem to believe I THOUGHT I could fool you into convincing them to get on board???! What an extraordinarily convoluted scenario! No wonder I couldn't get my mind around it for a whole day! It is an utterly foreign twist of logic for any normal consciousness to hold. The astounding thing is that you don't see the contradictions in your own words, do you? But most of all you can not by any reading of the word, "OBVIOUSLY" know what my relationship with the Hauser's is. One should not make absolute statements without qualification when they do not have the data to uphold the statement! This nuttiness can only be OBVIOUS in your own mind, because it lacks reality any where else. (I'm guessing you don't even understand this paragraph. I wouldn't be surprised that you all might be getting a good chuckle, and I'm the one who has lost his mind.)


Sorry but that's not the way it works.

No, it surely doesn't, and regardless of your belief I NEVER INTENDED IT TO DO SO.

I must accept that you either perpetrated this foolishness with purpose, or you just make stupid decisions. Unless proven otherwise I choose to accept the first. So, again, thank you, Kramer, thank you very, very much for unveiling the hidden face of the James Randi Evasion Foundation. That's what your boss does (or did) to make a living, isn't it ... evasion, misdirection, sleight of hand, pulling rabbits out of hats, and making words mean something other than what they really do mean? I love a good act, but don't try to convince me that the act is fact.

-Nick


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To which I replied...

Whatever.
 

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