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NHS Lanarkshire asking for views on homeopathic services

RationalVetMed

Graduate Poster
Joined
Jun 4, 2004
Messages
1,467
"NHS Lanarkshire is reviewing services provided by the Centre for Integrative Care (CIC, formerly known as the Glasgow Homoeopathic Hospital).

"As part of the review process the patients and the public are being asked for their views on the service."


http://www.nhslanarkshire.org.uk/Involved/consultation/homoeopathy/Pages/default.aspx

The closing date for submissions is 11 April, so quite late notice, but I only saw this for the first time yesterday.

Cheers,

Yuri
 
I no longer live in Lanarkshire, having moved a mere three miles across the county boundary seven years ago. However people this close to the county boundary are sometimes referred over to Lanarkshire and I think I might sneak a wee opinion in.

Rolfe.
 
I no longer live in Lanarkshire, having moved a mere three miles across the county boundary seven years ago. However people this close to the county boundary are sometimes referred over to Lanarkshire and I think I might sneak a wee opinion in.

Rolfe.
My folks live in Lanarkshire so I feel I've got an interest in the whole thing. My mum was once referred to the Glasgow Homeopathic Hospital for a bad hip where she was told that homeopathy might help her but if she had surgery there was nothing they could do - left her distinctly upset.

Cheers,

Yuri

eta - it's already being publicised on homeopathic sites and newsletters so they're rallying the troops.
 
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My Mum was attending Wishaw General till she died, for the glaucoma clinic. They didn't care about the county boundary. (I think she saw off half a dozen consultants in 30 years.) If she'd been sent for homoeopathy I think she'd have given them a piece of her mind.

The skids are under these guys. The medical authorities have stopped treating them with kid gloves.

When I went to the Lothian consultation, one of the people leading the discussion got very agitated and started writing madly when I made my point about NHS endorsement of homoeopathy sending out mixed messages and allowing charlatans to claim efficacy because "the NHS uses it, they know it works". Might try that again.

Also I made the point as a vet that whatever one might say about the benefits of placebo in human medicine, stroking the ego of the owner wasn't going to make the poor bloody dog feel any better. So I believed it had no place in veterinary medicine. Nevertheless, those pushing the sugar pills for animals were again able to point to apparent endorsement by the NHS to justify themselves. I said I'd seen some very distressing examples of unnecessary suffering, where animals were denied effective treatment for easily-treated conditions by homoeopaths justifying the deterioration as an aggravation or a healing crisis, and saying things like "we'll see it through together".

The floor of the meeting would happily have throttled me I think, but the top table was listening intently.

Maybe one day my own health authority will get round to doing something - if it even uses homoeopathy at the moment, I don't know.

When I was moving here someone who was trying to sell me her house recommended a doctor in Biggar, on the Lanarkshire side of the county boundary, on the grounds that he was open-minded and would try anything. Turned out, you guessed it, the doctor had sent her daughter to a homoeopath and this had magically cured the girl's eczema. The minute I moved (not to that house) I went to the medical practice in West Linton, on the Peeblesshire/Borders side of the county boundary, and enrolled both myself and my mother. Never seen the slightest trace of woo in the place.

Rolfe.
 
My mum was once referred to the Glasgow Homeopathic Hospital for a bad hip where she was told that homeopathy might help her but if she had surgery there was nothing they could do...


So much for homoeopathy being "complementary" medicine.

eta - it's already being publicised on homeopathic sites and newsletters so they're rallying the troops.


Yes, it's been publicised by homoeopaths as far away as Australia:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=9765960#post9765960
 
In that case, three miles outside the county boundary practically counts, right?

Rolfe.
 
When I was moving here someone... recommended a doctor in Biggar, on the Lanarkshire side of the county boundary, on the grounds that he was open-minded and would try anything.
Rolfe.
Probably the same doc that referred my mum then. Biggar isn't what you'd think of as the natural sort of place for alternative beliefs; the world is full of surprises!

Yuri
 
My thoughts exactly - she felt as if she had been abandoned. This was before I had realised just what homeopathy was. I remember the day when I explained to my dad that there were no actual ingredients in homeopathy - "Surely, there must be something in it, son".

People have such faith in docs sometimes it really grates when patients aren't given the full story.

Yuri
 
The survey allows for responses from non-Lanarkshire residents. If you are a Scottish resident would think you have a perfect right to comment as a taxpayer. Should think English residents also have right to do so based on Westminster subsidy to Scottish Government.

Will need lots of non-Lanarkshire residents to combat all the pro-homeopathetic who will no doubt have their say.
 
Well,

I'm a non-Scottish Brit, living in the West Country, but believe that this is important.

Too important to ignore, so I'm following the advice/request from Dubious Dick - obviously taking a break from being dubious... :)

Oh, and by the way I voted against nonsense....
 
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The survey allows for responses from non-Lanarkshire residents. If you are a Scottish resident would think you have a perfect right to comment as a taxpayer. Should think English residents also have right to do so based on Westminster subsidy to Scottish Government.

Will need lots of non-Lanarkshire residents to combat all the pro-homeopathetic who will no doubt have their say.


There is no subsidy from Westminster to Scotland. Scotland pays more in tax to Westminster than it gets back, and has done at any time point where anyone has been able to dredge up the figures. NHS Scotland is an entirely separate outfit from the NHS in England, and has been since the inception of the service in the 1940s. It is fully-funded from the Scottish block grant, which as I said involves no subsidy - unless you count the element of subsidy from Scotland to England. If you want to discuss this further I would suggest this is not the thread for it.

Nevertheless it's a fair point that they seem to be accepting submissions from anywhere, and as the world-wide community of homoeopaths seems to be mobilising itself, it's very reasonable for supporters of EBM from elsewhere to become involved.

I'm in an odd position in that I live in a little enclave of Peeblesshire with Midlothian three miles in one direction and Lanarkshire three miles in the other. (The boundaries follow the rivers and the watersheds.) I went in person to the Lothian consultation and was accepted as a local regardless, and indeed I have used Lothian health services because I work in Midlothian. While we were living here my mother, who had moved here from Lanarkshire, remained a patient in the Lanarkshire ophthalmology service. I'm Lanarkshire born and bred and lived there for 30 years so I reckon I'm entitled.

However, unless you give your address, which I made damn sure I did, you could be living in Perth - the one in Australia - for all they would know, unless you tick the "Lanarkshire resident" box.

Rolfe.
 
Here's my contribution.

I imagine you will receive many submissions from people pointing out that sugar pills aren’t medicine and that lying to patients that they are is not justifiable even to invoke a degree of genuine placebo benefit. I have a somewhat different concern.

Homoeopathy is a huge, multi-billion-euro business. Outside the NHS there are both medically-qualified and non-medically-qualified people promoting the system, and they find a ready market among patients with chronic or life-limiting conditions who become frustrated that scientific medicine can’t provide a pill to cure them. Homoeopathy offers that pill, dressed up in buzz-words like holistic, integrative, natural and so on.

One of the great difficulties faced by people trying to provide evidence-based information to those tempted by this seductive and well-funded marketing is the riposte that homoeopathy is offered on the NHS, therefore it is endorsed by the NHS, therefore it has been proved to be effective. Medical professionals who offer homoeopathy in addition to EBM send out a mixed message that can be very destructive, offering patients reluctant to confront decisions that have to be taken an illusion of doing something, when sugar pills are not the something that needs to be done.

I imagine you will be familiar with the extreme case of the death in Australia of Mrs. Penelope Dingle, who refused surgical treatment for a rectal carcinoma on the advice of homoeopathic practitioners, until the disease was too advanced to be successfully treated. The coroner’s report makes chilling reading. One of the main concerns of the inquest was that legitimisation of unproven or ineffective treatments by health professionals sent mixed messages to vulnerable and desperate people who may have fallen into the clutches of the more radical homoeopathy believers.

I have an almost identical concern from my own professional perspective as a veterinary surgeon. Homoeopathy in the context of animal medicine is a pernicious, cruel lie. While a human patient who perceives benefit from the “therapeutic consultation” is arguably receiving real benefit, fitting an animal’s owner with rose-coloured spectacles is of no benefit whatsoever to the animal. The placebo effect is astoundingly easy to invoke by proxy – simply telling an owner that the animal is better can be enough to convince them, as they are of course not feeling the pain themselves but merely interpreting the animal’s appearance and behaviour.

Homoeopathy has a disturbing toe-hold within the veterinary profession, including not just pet medicine but farm animals. The regulations for organic farming prescribe that homoeopathy should be used in preference to EBM, on the grounds that licenced medicines are unnatural chemicals. One of the major obstacles to attempts within the veterinary profession to address this issue is the perennial claim from our own homoeopathic believers that homoeopathy is an integral part of the NHS, is endorsed by it, and accepted as efficacious.

I write therefore not just as someone born and bred and residing in Lanarkshire for many years, now three miles outside the county boundary in Peeblesshire but still potentially a user of NHS Lanarkshire, but as a member of a related profession with serious concerns about homoeopathy. I hope that the damage that can result from the legitimisation of homoeopathy by the NHS is something that will be taken into account in your deliberations. Every Health Authority that withdraws support from homoeopathic services brings closer the day when the promotion of animal suffering by substituting sugar pills for effective medicine can be outlawed from the veterinary profession.


Rolfe.
 
Here's my contribution.

...

Rolfe.
Eloquent, incisive, reasoned; a joy to read.

Medical professionals who offer homoeopathy in addition to EBM send out a mixed message that can be very destructive, offering patients reluctant to confront decisions that have to be taken an illusion of doing something, when sugar pills are not the something that needs to be done.
... consider that one stolen.

My response was less so :) (heartfelt, nevertheless!).

Yuri
 


There's an update. NHS Lanarkshire have accepted the report's recommendation: http://www.nhslanarkshire.org.uk/news/news/Pages/homoeopathydecision.aspx

From April 1 2015, patients will be referred to existing services within Lanarkshire such as pain management, counselling, psychology, acupuncture and cognitive behavioural therapy. Lanarkshire patients currently using CIC services will continue to do so for the duration of their treatment.
 
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