New question for kurious_kathy...

[stamenflicker]

"Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am." This is a remarkable claim, but not of divinity exactly. He is not naming himself "I am", he's just using the words. I must have said "I am" hundreds of times without meaning that I'm God.

Indeed. I think Jesus was a very slippery guy, or at least portrayed that way in the Gospels. Religious people always seemed to try to nail him on something (I guess the eventually did, i.e. the cross ), but he repeatedly was able to elude most of the linguistic traps and traps of situational ethics continually laid out in front of him.

In this case though, I think knew exactly what he was claiming in front of a group of people that he knew were going to get pissed off. The reaction of the crowd seems to indicate they had a good idea of what He was claiming. I can't remember if its in this story or another one when they pick up stones and get ready to kill him. He asks them, "I've shown you many good things from the Father, for which one of these are you stoning me?" And the crowds answered, "Not for any good work you've done, but because you being a man make yourself out to be God." Actually I found it, its John 10:31ff.

http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=joh+10:32&t=kjv&st=1&new=1&sr=1&sc=1&l=en

Anyway, it's enough for me to think he claimed to be God.

As far as Revelation goes, that does nothing to reassure me of the thing that's bothering me --- that even if we take the Bible at face value, the claims for Jesus' divinity and the rest of the (evangelical) doctrine of salvation are more likely to have been made up by early Christians rather than being part of Jesus' original message.

I totally understand. It certainly could have been made less ambigious. There are numerous ways to look at it I suppose, which to me points to the authenticity of the documents and an earlier written date within in accepted timelines (I mean that as opposed to a fabrication, which would look "neater" and be more internally consistent.) These folks were probably still trying to figure out years after the puported resurrection what the heck just happened. That Paul had to visit the Jerusalem church so often in his early ministry would also indicate that there was likely some disagreement about what all of it meant. At the end of the day though for right or wrong, they seemed to settle on the issue on the side of Paul.

BTW-- I like your new sig, what does it stand for?

Flick

 

[Roadtoad]

I will be brief....

 

[stamenflicker]

I will be brief....

?

Flick

 

[kurious_kathy]

If the usual Christological doctrine is correct, then Jesus is asking God to make Christians into members of the Trinity, which seems absurd. But instead he seems to think that the degree of oneness which he has with God can be bestowed as a gift upon others.

The Trinity is how God reveals Himself to us...in 3 parts. God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit all in One.
But when I view what you are talking about here I see it as the body of Christ, not the Trinity. We who are made spiritually alive through Christ become part of the body of Christ. This body is made up of all true believers and it is mentioning it as a spiritual body not in the physical realm as people may think of it.
There are other scriptual references to the body of Christ that mention Jesus as the capstone as the head of the body. If you will ponder this text, I will have to look those references as well but 1 Peter 2:5-10 says...you also, as living stones, are being built up as a spiritual house for a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.Therefore it is also contained in the Scripture,
“ Behold, I lay in Zion A chief cornerstone, elect, precious,
And he who believes on Him will by no means be put to shame.”
Therefore, to you who believe, He is precious; but to those who are disobedient, “ The stone which the builders rejected Has become the chief cornerstone,”and“ A stone of stumblingAnd a rock of offense.”
They stumble, being disobedient to the word, to which they also were appointed.But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light; who once were not a people but are now the people of God, who had not obtained mercy but now have obtained mercy.

 

[SuperCoolGuy]

If you will ponder this text, I will have to look those references as well but 1 Peter 2:5 says...you also, as living stones, are being built up as a spiritual house for a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.

I thought Jesus did the sacrifice. Why do we need to offer spiritual sacrifice when belief in Jesus' sacrifice is all we need?

 

[kurious_kathy]

I thought Jesus did the sacrifice. Why do we need to offer spiritual sacrifice when belief in Jesus' sacrifice is all we need?

We are definately under a New Covenant now through the blood of Christ that was shed on the cross. If you look back at all the blood sacrifices made in the Old Testament it is all symbolic of what led up to Jesus's sacrifice. But it is only by grace that any of us are saved. The law is put there for all who choose to love God to try to follow. But there are many who did not even know about God's Laws before coming to faith. I think this is what can be a very painful repentance for many of us who in the past broke those laws. The law seems to me to be the way God convicts us of our need for his power in our lives so we don't want to to those things.
Once I was blind, but now I see the way God wants me to live and follow Him. This to me is a condition of the heart after coming to faith in Christ we turn from those things which once broke God's heart. The law was written for a reason and yes I would say God is judging and testing people by those decrees! Remember Jesus came to save sinners and call them to repent.

 

[SuperCoolGuy]

We are definately under a New Covenant now through the blood of Christ that was shed on the cross. If you look back at all the blood sacrifices made in the Old Testament it is all symbolic of what led up to Jesus's sacrifice. But it is only by grace that any of us are saved. The law is put there for all who choose to love God to try to follow. But there are many who did not even know about God's Laws before coming to faith. I think this is what can be a very painful repentance for many of us who in the past broke those laws. The law seems to me to be the way God convicts us of our need for his power in our lives so we don't want to to those things.
Once I was blind, but now I see the way God wants me to live and follow Him. This to me is a condition of the heart after coming to faith in Christ we turn from those things which once broke God's heart. The law was written for a reason and yes I would say God is judging and testing people by those decrees! Remember Jesus came to save sinners and call them to repent.

Okay, so does Peter understand the New Covenant, because he's saying we can do our own spiritual sacrifice like the Old Law. Is Peter confused?

 

[kurious_kathy]

Okay, so does Peter understand the New Covenant, because he's saying we can do our own spiritual sacrifice like the Old Law. Is Peter confused?

Spirtual sacrifices are more like offering a sacrifce of praise and worship to God. When we pray for others and offer a helping hand this gives God the Glory. If there is anything I can give to honor you Lord.
We don't make animal sacrifices anymore like in the OT days. Jesus was the sacrfice. Now in Christ no matter what we are going through we can have joy and give him thanks for everything. I know where my help comes from, it comes from the Lord. An attitude of gratitude for each day he gives! These are just a few things that can reflect a spiritual offering.

 

[SuperCoolGuy]

Spirtual sacrifices are more like offering a sacrifce of praise and worship to God.

I'm sorry, but I thought sacrifice was giving up something you cherish for another cause.

Perhaps, if I consider praise and worship of myself as something I cherish, then giving it to God could be considered sacrifice.

Does someone have to cherish the praise and worship of themselves first, then quit the practice and devote praise and worship to God, and then heaven is granted? What importance is Jesus' sacrifice, then?

 

[rharbers]

We are definately under a New Covenant now through the blood of Christ that was shed on the cross.

Is it the physical blood or the spiritual blood that saves us? Was it his physical death or his spiritual death that matters?

 

[kurious_kathy]

Is it the physical blood or the spiritual blood that saves us? Was it his physical death or his spiritual death that matters?

Are you familiar with the scripture pertaining to communion? In Matthew 26:28 it is clear that Jesus's blood was shed for the sins of man. This was a physical death so obviously it was his real blood....for this is My blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for forgiveness of sins.

 

[rharbers]

Are you familiar with the scripture pertaining to communion? In Matthew 26:28 it is clear that Jesus's blood was shed for the sins of man. This was a physical death so obviously it was his real blood....for this is My blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for forgiveness of sins.

Yes I am familiar with all those scriptures. The way I understand it, is that the Christ had to die spiritually before dying physically and it is his spiritual blood that takes away sin since sins are of the mind to begin with. Note that he said, "It is finished", before he died physically. What was finished? Every preacher or priest I ever met answers with "Salvation is complete".

 

[kurious_kathy]

I'm sorry, but I thought sacrifice was giving up something you cherish for another cause.

Well we are also told in Romans 12 to make our bodies a living sacrifice holy and acceptable to God. Most everyone I know values their own body, right?
Even now in my choice to not serve my own flesh do I make a sacrifice trying to honor God. Putting down the carnal in exchange for the spiritual.
I'm not saying I'm a nun. I am saying that living my life in accordance to what God says is holy and acceptable in his eyes is how I want to live my life now. There was a day when I did what I wanted which wasn't what God wanted. Now I see what type of sacrifice I must choose to make if I want to live a spirit filled life. This is only possible through Christ. On my own I am unable.

I have recently heard this explaination of what grace is and I find for myself it is very true. "Grace is something God gives us that helps us supernaturally and it is something we cannot do for ourselves."

Ever heard the expression in phsycology that says it's an outward expression of an inward happenning? Well once we experience this thing called God's grace we want more. So no matter what happens in our lives or hardships we may face in life, God is giving us the strength we need to carry on!