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New Mammogram Guidelines

Puppycow

Penultimate Amazing
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So, these new mammogram guidelines came out and apparantly they are very controversial. On my way to work I was listening a radio program about it, and the doctor who was speaking for the people who wrote the new guidelines was viciously attacked, with all kinds of nasty aspersions thrown at her. It was a clear-cut case of shooting the messenger. All they did is look at the evidence from population studies to see if the benefits of yearly mammograms were outweighing the risks, and the data showed that it's arguable that the benefits outweigh the risks for women in their 40s and that every two years rather than every year might be better for older women. They didn't say not to get mammograms, but to discuss it with your doctor. For reporting what the evidence is, they have subjected to a lot of abuse. It's a real shame. One one side is the cold hard data, and on the other are personal experiences.

I know that Obama has suggested that America could save a lot of money on healthcare by studying what works and what doesn't, but this episode suggests that people aren't going to care what the data says if you have some actual real people come out and say "treatment X saved my life, so you know where you stuff that data of yours."
 
Similar news today in the UK about £3000/month cancer treatment for terminally ill. NICE, based on the guidelines it has been given, ruled that it was not cost effective.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/8367614.stm

Liver cancer drug 'too expensive'

A drug that can prolong the lives of patients with advanced liver cancer has been rejected for use in the NHS in England, Wales and Northern Ireland.

The National Institute for Health and Clinical Excellence (NICE) said the cost of Nexavar - about £3,000 a month - was "simply too high".

But Macmillan Cancer Support said the decision was "a scandal".

More than 3,000 people are diagnosed with liver cancer every year in the UK and their prognosis is generally poor.

Only about 20% of patients are alive one year after diagnosis, dropping to just 5% after five years.

...emotional guff...

Nexavar - also known as sorafenib - had already been rejected in Scotland, despite studies showing it could extend the life of a liver cancer patient by up to six months.

'Devastating disease'

The Scottish Medicines Consortium ruled that "the manufacturer's justification of the treatment's cost in relation to its benefit was not sufficient to gain acceptance".

Andrew Dillon, chief executive of NICE, agreed: "The price being asked by [the manufacturer] Bayer is simply too high to justify using NHS money which could be spent on better value cancer treatments."

And the group's clinical and public health director, Peter Littlejohns, added the drug was considered "just too expensive" by its advisory committees.

...
 
I'm not surprised by the new recommendations or the reactions. Cancer (breast cancer in particular) is always a very emotional issue, so new evidence that goes against conventional wisdom is more often decried and attacked than rationally examined. People have personal experience with cancer which is always sad, scary and often traumatic, so it clouds their judgement when thinking of the bigger picture. Detection bias, false positives and limited ressources are all immaterial from the individual point of view.
 
My response to these people would be, why do they think 40 is the right number in the first place? Why not 30? If 30, why not 20? Puberty? When do THEY think that the cost/benefit plays out? Do they understand that this is an x-ray as well, that there is some actual risk (small though it might be) associated with getting it?

For crying out loud, I can't freaking buy toilet paper without a freaking pink ribbon on it anymore, but these people are all moaning about how women are being mistreated and nobody cares about breast cancer. Give me an effing break.

Sorry, but from the moment I heard about the 'controversial' new guidelines and all the associated, completely uninformed whining that went with it, this has been burrowing further and further under my skin. I really hate people.
 
I find it curious that health bureaucrats in Colorado plan to ignore the new guidelines. Never mind that evidence in medicine, I guess?
 
Its all because there aren't any charities representing the interests of people who have suffered from a false alarm through screening and had to have the stress of investigations, only to turn out not to have the illness.
 
This is just the sort of post that JREFers hate, because I have no supporting evidence or even names to back it up, but on some idiotic daytime show (Today or something similar) there was a woman who was the head of a major breast cancer organization (and also a doctor, as I recall.) She said that when the guidelines were set originally, it had only been put at 40 because Congress passed a resolution that told whoever set said guidelines that they weren't good enough and to try again. This makes little or no sense now that I read it, but the gist was that the original guidelines weren't based on anything more than political pressure. I didn't check her story, and I don't care enough about this to do so, but it was vaguely interesting.

Wow, talk about a crappy post.
 
I find it curious that health bureaucrats in Colorado plan to ignore the new guidelines. Never mind that evidence in medicine, I guess?

People often believe things that are not supported by science. Especially something like "get a mammogram if you are over 40" that has been repeated for years. Even people with medical degrees fall into this trap. For example, it's not hard to find doctors that tell their patients to drink eight glasses of water a day.
 
I always laugh when people talk about cost/benefit in health care in such cold and calculating ways.
Why? Because do you honestly think that when their mother/wife/daughter is in a stage of cancer that is less than positive for the calculated successful survival rate they will heroically console everybody with their statistics saying that it is best that they should just get on and die because it will save everybody money? :boggled:
 
I always laugh when people talk about cost/benefit in health care in such cold and calculating ways.
Why? Because do you honestly think that when their mother/wife/daughter is in a stage of cancer that is less than positive for the calculated successful survival rate they will heroically console everybody with their statistics saying that it is best that they should just get on and die because it will save everybody money? :boggled:

This has absolutely nothing to do with the topic that's being discussed though. We're not talking about a person who has advanced cancer being denied treatment, we're talking about a diagnostic exam that exposes people to not insignificant amounts of radiation that is done unnecessarily early and often.
 
I find it curious that health bureaucrats in Colorado plan to ignore the new guidelines. Never mind that evidence in medicine, I guess?

It, like all of socialized medicine, is about politics.

Haven't you figured that out, yet? :)




On the radio today, NPR had some woman who was like, I'm getting it anyway, my mom died of breast cancer at 56 and my aunt at 46.

Well, ya, you would be one of those who would be recommended to start it early.


I had an interesting non-medical experience with people at work yesterday. Sometimes I forget how...unaware?...most people are of things.


And these things of course:

1. Cost aside, what is the dividing line between the average woman where she'd be more likely to find a tumor and be saved vs. more likely to induce cancer by having screenings? Presumably one could have more frequent ones the older you got to reflect the shifting probabilities as you age.

2. Could "government money" to pay for these be better diverted to research for it, with more bang for the buck, saving-of-life-wise?
 
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My concern would be the number of insurance companies who would look at these guidelines and say, "Oh, look! We don't have to cover mammograms on anyone until they're over 50!" Then, even if you're in one of the high-risk groups, it takes your doctor getting an official act of Congress to make them believe it and pay for the stupid test.
 
Looking at the Nexavar cite above, the total cost per liver cancer patient for one year of treatment would be (3000 pounds/month, 12 months, pounds to dollars) about $70,000. No mention of associated costs- tests, visits, etc. So lets say $100,000 to take six months longer to die. That is $16,000 per month of death delayed. Six additional months of being deathly ill- I watched my brother die of cancer. Chemo kicks your ass too, in addition to the cancer. It's not like $16,000 would have bought him a month of youthful life.

So no, the cost/benefit in some therapies is quite easily negative.
 
Insurance groups have already gone on record as intending to continue to cover mammograms. Somehow that rated front page mentions.
 
I've been listening a bit to this debate, and it's interesting to me that both sides are so convinced they're right, and so convinced that they're unbiased, and rational in their position, and it makes me wonder if perhaps they are both right in their own way, but thinking differently about it.

I should preface this with the statement that I'm no statistician or epidemiologist, and know only what I've heard so far on some radio programs and debates.

I haven't seen the studies that the recommendation is based on, but it appears, from what I've heard, that the result is based on a relatively simple balancing of benefit versus harm, for a relatively large population. Perhaps this is not the case, but it appears that they've taken a virtual scale, and in one pan they put the benefit (you don't die of an undiagnosed cancer), and in the other pan they've put a whole panoply of possible negative consequences. So, for a population of n patients, if more are harmed than helped, you say it's not a good bargain.

What I don't see here is how they have weighed harm. {Edited to add: they did try to emphasize that the financial consequences were not weighed in this study.} The obvious negative consequence if you need a mammogram is that you will die of cancer, which is a horrible, terminal, drastic consequence, at least in most people's opinion. Does the study weigh only equivalent negatives, or does it, as its advocates at least appear to be saying, bundle all the negatives as a cumulative "harm," including consequences which, while nasty enough, are not singly equivalent to a painful death from cancer? Again, I'm not sure how they're weighing this all, but on one NPR program I was listening to, one of the persons responsible for the study appeared to be referring to a large list of negatives including stress and inconvenience, as well as unnecessary biopsies and mastectomies. Obviously some of these consequences are heavy, and even fatal, but some are not. It did not appear from what I heard that the advocates of the new study are balancing deaths against deaths, but rather that they're making a judgment of relative harm. Even if that judgment is wise and impartial and well considered, it's debatable.

The second thing I don't know is whether the study used matched pairs, or whether it's a general population study. From what I've heard so far, it's a population study. I don't know what rules were applied for inclusion in the study. While that may be perfectly adequate to weigh overall benefits for a population of getting a procedure, unless the subset of the population matches one's own circumstances, it's of far less value in making a personal decision about the same thing. To pick an obvious random example, if a certain percentage of the negative consequences of the test were related to diabetes or heart disease, or some other condition, then obviously a person without these conditions would see different odds. Or to pick another example, if some of the consequences were due to poor medical judgment on the part of doctors, a person who has a really good doctor with a proven record of good judgment has a different decision to make. I don't know how the study has taken these factors into account, but suspect that if it did not use fairly careful matching, at least some of these factors will have been omitted, and if that is true, then it would be a poor basis for individual decision making, and a poor basis for any policy that drives or enables individual decision making, no matter how valid it is as an actuarial reference.
 
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The second thing I don't know is whether the study used matched pairs, or whether it's a general population study. From what I've heard so far, it's a population study.

What study are you talking about?

Linda
 
The big issue here is that the mantra that early detection saves lives is not necessarily true. The other thing is that there simply isn't an objective way to set a screening guideline. You'll have to assign different weights to a large number of factors and try to optimize under some set of rules that are all subjective to some degree. Should we focus on breast cancer when its mortality rate has been going down while lung cancer mortality rates have been increasing among women? Detection and prevention there could save lives too...
 
What study are you talking about?

Linda
According to what I heard, the new guidelines were based on a population study, but it appears from further searching that it was a meta-study, if that term can apply, based on a number of studies.

Washington Post says this:
To conduct the review, Heidi D. Nelson of the Oregon Health & Science University in Portland led an analysis of data from more than 40 studies, including a new British study involving more than 160,000 women and data collected from more than 600,000 women in the United States.

Without knowing a bit more about how the various risk factors in such a large sample were evaluated, I do wonder how relevant the results are to an individual's decision.
 

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