Split From New book on Pearl Harbor attack analysis

[xinonix]

Does this new book tell us anything more about the theory that Roosevelt knew the attack would happen?
The theory is a code the Japanese were using was broken and what intelligence found out was the Japanese fleet was on the way.
The Admirals may have thought that such an attack would not happen, but as a precaution they had the aircraft carriers go out to sea.

 

[SpitfireIX]

Such discussions belong in the Conspiracy Theories section. I've requested that the mods split your post off and move it to the appropriate forum.

 

[Gawdzilla Sama]

Yes, please split this, 'cause I'm going to be at this a while, I suspect.

Does this new book tell us anything more about the theory that Roosevelt knew the attack would happen?

Yep, Zimm dismisses it, with good justification.

The theory is a code the Japanese were using was broken and what intelligence found out was the Japanese fleet was on the way.

FDR wanted to start the war in the wrong ocean with a defeat, did he? And if we had broken JN-25B why were we only reading one word in ten six months later?

The Admirals may have thought that such an attack would not happen, but as a precaution they had the aircraft carriers go out to sea.

Actually, Enterprise and Lexington were out delivering P-40s to Wake and Midway. Enterprise was supposed to be back in port on Dec. 6th, but heavy weather delayed her. Her crew were fretting that they wouldn't get back in time to play a decisive game in the softball tournament against their rival, Arizona. The game never happened.

 

[Dog Town]

Actually, Enterprise and Lexington were out delivering P-40s to Wake and Midway. Enterprise was supposed to be back in port on Dec. 6th...

Glad she wasn't!

 

[MG1962]

The Admirals may have thought that such an attack would not happen, but as a precaution they had the aircraft carriers go out to sea.

Something that has to be considered, American naval personal just dont think that way. All through their history they have sort battle, often in situations where the outcome was doubtful.

From the US point of view they would have assumed the Japanese were planning to invade. Rather than attempt to conserve forces they would have mustered everything that could float to thwart the Japanese.

Why?............Just simple pride, and 200 years of never backing down from a fight at sea

 

[HighRiser]

Does this new book tell us anything more about the theory that Roosevelt knew the attack would happen?
The theory is a code the Japanese were using was broken and what intelligence found out was the Japanese fleet was on the way.
The Admirals may have thought that such an attack would not happen, but as a precaution they had the aircraft carriers go out to sea.

Baseless speculation about foreknowledge of Japan's attack on Pearl does not a "theory" make. Roosevelt and his cabinet knew Japan was hostile to Allied interests in the pacific and resentful to US diplomacy and sanctions against the frankly horrendous treatment of her neighbours.

Japanese naval codes were not broken to a useful extent by November '41.

The carriers were, fortunately, ferrying fighters to Midway that day because the intelligence apparatus knew things were heating up in the pacific. Blind luck saved the flattops.

There is no objective reason to think that the surprise attack on PH was anything more than brilliant strategy by an underestimated foe. We were caught with our pants down at Pearl, as were all the other Allied interests that were attacked at the same time. People somehow aren't aware that the attack on PH itself was not an isolated event. The Japanese hit everything they could, in as short a time as they could, all over the Pacific theater.

 

[SpitfireIX]

Actually, Enterprise and Lexington were out delivering P-40s to Wake and Midway. Enterprise was supposed to be back in port on Dec. 6th, but heavy weather delayed her. Her crew were fretting that they wouldn't get back in time to play a decisive game in the softball tournament against their rival, Arizona. The game never happened.

[nitpick]Actually, the Big E had delivered Marine F4Fs to Wake, and Lady Lex was on her way to ferry Marine SB2Us to Midway. The original plan called for P-40s, but Short refused to provide any unless he were given command of the islands. "I don't want them, but if I have them, I must command them." [/nitpick]

 

[MRC_Hans]

Does this new book tell us anything more about the theory that Roosevelt knew the attack would happen?

It was known that an attack would very likely happen if there was a state of war with Japan. Somewhat naively it was assumed that Japan would declare way first, perhaps because the attack was a really stupid move.

The theory is a code the Japanese were using was broken and what intelligence found out was the Japanese fleet was on the way.

No, it was not broken at that time.

The Admirals may have thought that such an attack would not happen, but as a precaution they had the aircraft carriers go out to sea.

But they did not keep the defences at alert? Ridiculous.

FDR wanted to go to war against Germany, and he was willing to risk one with Japan, but it would be insane not to deal them a serious beating if he knew about the impending attack. Zimm's book explains how an alerted Pearl Harbour could have made the attack extremely costly to the Japanese. Perhaps catastrophically costly

Hans

 

[Gawdzilla Sama]

FDR wanted to go to war against Germany, and he was willing to risk one with Japan, but it would be insane not to deal them a serious beating if he knew about the impending attack. Zimm's book explains how an alerted Pearl Harbour could have made the attack extremely costly to the Japanese. Perhaps catastrophically costly

Hans

There were over 30 destroyers in port that day. Most were "nested", ~ five ships to a group. This limited the traverse of the guns on the sides of the inner ships, but their bow and stern guns had more freedom. Add to them another ~30 ships of similar class with 3" or greater guns and the AAA barrage would have been frightening to face if they had all been alerted and assigned arcs of fire to cover. The torpedo bombers would have been especially hard hit as they had to make approaches along predictable paths.

To allow a defeat when a smashing victory was possible is stupid, and promoting that idea is even worse, because it requires that everybody "in the know" agree that the pointless loss of life and warmaking potential be allowed in order to get us into a war where we didn't want to be fighting just on the chance that it would get us into a different war on the other side of the planet. The top this off, as I've mentioned before, FDR's naval attache would have had to be in the know, and he would have had to be okay with allowing a surprise attack on the naval base where his son was serving.