New-age Whacko Fractal-Lovers

[scribble]

Q:Fractals seem to appear all over nature and in economics. Even the internet is fractal. What does that say about the underlying nature of these phenomena?

A:Well, it depends on the field. Circles and straight lines also appear everywhere. Does this mean that all those phenomena have something in common? Of course not. The roughly circular trajectory of a planet around the sun is due to gravitational interactions. Berries are round because a sphere has a smaller skin. The beauty of geometry is that it is a language of extraordinary subtlety that serves many purposes.

Q:So fractals don't point to a single rule underlying reality?

A:There is no single rule that governs the use of geometry. I don't think that one exists.

From <a href=http://www.newscientist.com/opinion/opinterview.jsp;jsessionid=LHJCGEKJLFPH?id=ns24731>this</a> interview with Benoit Mandelbrot, who along with Gaston Julia is pretty much responsible for the invention of fractals as we know 'em.

How many times have I heard someone here bring up Fractals like they really *MEAN* something? I always tell them they're f-ing idiots for saying so.

Well, now here's The Man Himself saying the same thing. If the idiots in the crowd won't listen to me, maybe they'll take it straight from the horse's mouth. Benoit says YOU SUCK, losers!

-Chris

 

[Yaotl]

I've never heard that one before. Who believes fractals mean something?

 

[scribble]

I've never heard that one before. Who believes fractals mean something?

Well, you COULD do a search for 'fractals' and then wade through the posts looking for what the idiots have said in the past.

OR you could just hang around and see whether any of them decide they'd like to argue the point -- again. Maybe you can handle the sensible side of the argument for me, since I'm sick of it.

 

[Yaotl]

Well, you COULD do a search for 'fractals' and then wade through the posts looking for what the idiots have said in the past.

OR you could just hang around and see whether any of them decide they'd like to argue the point -- again. Maybe you can handle the sensible side of the argument for me, since I'm sick of it.

Search here or just google?

 

[scribble]

It depends on what you're looking for.

If you want to find previous discussion I've had and determine who the idiots are, search here.

If you just generally want to find out whether some people do, in fact, attribute deep meaning to fractals, search google.

Of course, you could have searched BOTH in the time it took you to ask that question, and I *DID* search both in the time it took me to answer you.

http://home.att.net/~Fractals_1/FotD_99-09-02.html

There's another fellow with a decent explanation of why they don't mean jack.

Maybe you're not skilled in finessing the search engines. This is the third search I tried, and it seems to have a fair amount of whacko-hits.

http://www.google.com/search?q="meaning+of+fractals"+new-age&btnG=Search&hl=en&lr=&safe=off&c2coff=1

 

[Yaotl]

It depends on what you're looking for.

If you want to find previous discussion I've had and determine who the idiots are, search here.

If you just generally want to find out whether some people do, in fact, attribute deep meaning to fractals, search google.

Of course, you could have searched BOTH in the time it took you to ask that question, and I *DID* search both in the time it took me to answer you.

http://home.att.net/~Fractals_1/FotD_99-09-02.html

There's another fellow with a decent explanation of why they don't mean jack.

Maybe you're not skilled in finessing the search engines. This is the third search I tried, and it seems to have a fair amount of whacko-hits.

http://www.google.com/search?q="meaning+of+fractals"+new-age&btnG=Search&hl=en&lr=&safe=off&c2coff=1

Aye, but now I didn't have to do anything and you narrowed it down for me.

 

[Zombified]

Dr. Mandelbrot has been dealing with this since the day his book was published in the early 1980's. I saw him give a talk once, back in those days, and sure enough when Q&A time came around, there was one of those rambling questions about fractals and the nature of reality... the rest of the audience was actually starting to laugh. Mandelbrot dealt with the question politely but firmly, and didn't waste our time arguing with the guy. I was very impressed.

 

[scribble]

Aye, but now I didn't have to do anything and you narrowed it down for me.

Yes, which will earn you only scorn and dislike. Getting other people to do your work for you works only as long as you're willing to keep finding new friends.

 

[scribble]

Mandelbrot dealt with the question politely but firmly, and didn't waste our time arguing with the guy. I was very impressed. [/B]

That's awesome. I'm ashamed to admit it, but I guess I never realized Benoit Mandelbrot was a still-living person. I should have paid more attention to him -- he seems remarkably level-headed for someone so popular.

 

[Yaotl]

Yes, which will earn you only scorn and dislike. Getting other people to do your work for you works only as long as you're willing to keep finding new friends.

How about you calm down? You started the thread and didn't give an example of what you were talking about in the first place.

 

[scribble]

How about you calm down? You started the thread and didn't give an example of what you were talking about in the first place.

I enjoy being excitable.

I'd seriously intended my reply to be helpful to you. Many people do not realize that asking stupid questions they could easily answer themselves tend to aggravate people who are used to doing their own work. I'd hoped to make you aware of the issue, so next time you do the search yourself *before* you ask -- or if you don't, you at least will not be likely to brag about getting me to do your work for you. Rubbing my nose in the favor I've done you is far from polite.

 

[Yaotl]

I enjoy being excitable.

I'd seriously intended my reply to be helpful to you. Many people do not realize that asking stupid questions they could easily answer themselves tend to aggravate people who are used to doing their own work. I'd hoped to make you aware of the issue, so next time you do the search yourself *before* you ask -- or if you don't, you at least will not be likely to brag about getting me to do your work for you. Rubbing my nose in the favor I've done you is far from polite.

Normally I go straight to Google to clear things up I'd only had a passing acquaintance with, but your OP was something too new for me. I wouldn't know where to start. You said yourself that it was your 3rd search attempt that got you any usable results, and you knew what you were looking for. And the bragging was all in fun, otherwise I would have called you "sucker"

 

[scribble]

You said yourself that it was your 3rd search attempt that got you any usable results, and you knew what you were looking for. And the bragging was all in fun, otherwise I would have called you "sucker"

That's cool then. Sorry if I'm overly excitable. The only thrill remaining in my empty life is telling other people they are stupid.

 

[Yaotl]

That's cool then. Sorry if I'm overly excitable. The only thrill remaining in my empty life is telling other people they are stupid.

Go to the forums at anandtech.com, then to the off topic section. Plenty of people that definitely deserve to be called stupid.

 

[Chris Haynes]

I've never heard that one before. Who believes fractals mean something?

The same folks who think holograms have spiritual meaning. I had a conversation with someone who was excited over the mystical workings of holograms, then I had to break it to her that is was just a type of "photograph" using very explanable and standard physics. Then I gave her my copy of Skeptical Inquirer that explained it (this was long time ago, so I forgot the specifics).

I was also baffled by someone who gushed over a shirt that I had constructed and tie-dyed. She thought that tie-dye was "spiritual". Uh, huh.

These same people who are dazed by sparkly stuff.

 

[Quixote]

It looks to me as if some new agers have just decided to co-opt fractals the same way they did quantum mechanics. They like the buzz words and the mystical sounding concepts (fractional dimension, self similarity, etc.). However, just as the strange spin quantum mechanics co-opters put on QM did not effect QM as a valid field of study, so the strange spin fractal co-opters put on fractals won't effect fractals as an interesting and potentially useful mathematical concept.

I see nothing wrong with the interviewer's question to Mandelbrot. It's perfectly reasonable to suspect that a system's mathematical structure says something about its underlying nature. Mandelbrot doesn't dismiss that idea, as you seem to believe, but rather points out that "it depends on the field". He then provided two examples of systems the mathematical structures of which provide clues as to their underlying nature.

Just because we don't understand fractals and the circumstances that might lead to a fractal structure as well as we understand circles and the forces that lead to a circular structure doesn't mean that a fractal structure is meanngless.


Edited to correct starnge speelling.

 

[T'ai Chi]

In 2002 I attended a presentation in Portland where Mandelbrot talked about fractals. He was really interesting and entertaining!

The place was absolutely packed with people.

 

[Matabiri]

In 2002 I attended a presentation in Portland where Mandelbrot talked about fractals. He was really interesting and entertaining!

The place was absolutely packed with people.

I went to a talk by him in 2001, but he was talking about modelling the stock market, for some reason. I went all over town looking for a Mandlebrot set poster, so I could ask him to sign it (I mean - how cool?), but, alas, failed.

 

[Soapy Sam]

Does anyone wonder if what mathematicians mean by "mean" means the same as what non mathematicians mean?

 

[TillEulenspiegel]

Mandelbrot's vision is one about chaotic systems , that complex behavior can arise from a simple rule set and demonstrate self-replicative behavior. It is no more mystical that PII or e or any other Magic ( poor selection of words there eh? ) number.

People like to glom on to concepts like "The Butterfly Effect" and "Strange attractors" simply because they sound exotic , not because they understand the theory or maths behind them.