Neandertal on Trial

[Flaherty]

NOVA reran this 2002 episode last night. It presented several arguments about Neandertal's relationship to modern humans. Here is what I gathered from the show (which I may or may not be relaying accurately):

1. mtDNA evidence suggests Neandertals and modern humans are cousins who shared are a common ancestor about 500K years ago.

2. There appears to be no traces of Neandertal DNA in modern humans, so evidently they did not interbreed. Or if they did, none of the offspring survived. This suggests they are separate species.

3. Anthropologists have found artifacts that suggest were very much like modern humans except for art.

4. Comparative anatomy suggests Neandertals and modern humans are the same species only of a different variety.

5. mtDNA shows that modern humans can all trace a lineage back to sub-Saharan Africa *after* Neandertals were well-established in Europe. This also suggests Neandertals are cousins rather than ancestors.

Since the show was first broadcast in 2002, that means the science behind it is probably no more recent than 2001. Has there been any interesting new finds on this question? Any additional genetic work?

To me it seems that the DNA analysis would settle the matter and we'd have to conclude Neandertals are cousins rather than ancestors, right? Wrong?

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/neanderthals/

 

[Brown]

Sorry to interrupt, but I thought this was going to be a thread about Scott Peterson.

Seriously, I try to watch NOVA whenever I can, and I missed this episode in my schedule guide. The NOVA shown in my area last night pertained to Archimedes.

 

[Carn]

To me it seems that the DNA analysis would settle the matter and we'd have to conclude Neandertals are cousins rather than ancestors, right? Wrong?

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/neanderthals/

Which would mean our ancestors commited s slow version of genozid in wiping Neanderthals from earths surface.

Ok, might be wrong as well, maybe Neanderthals could not stand the end of some ice age.

Carn

 

[MRC_Hans]

I think the seperate, but closely related species theory is the most recent. I don't know just how certain the mtDNA test is on archeological material of such great age, but it seems to be considered rather reliable.

It seems that early in human evolution, a number of different hominids existed. Then all except the Cro-Magnon lineage died out, with the Neandertals as the last one.

I have often speculated whether our tendency to racism and xenofobia is a relict instinct from an era when there actually were different "kinds" of humans.

Hans

 

[JSFolk]

His trial went so well, his attorney is running for president.

 

[Rolfe]

I heard a theory some time ago that red hair was a Neanderthal gene.

Probably been revised by now, considering the posts above.

Rolfe.

 

[Anders]

It's kinda hard to put dates on genes. But it is beeing done.

But are there really any Neanderthal DNA availible?

 

[BobK]

It's kinda hard to put dates on genes. But it is beeing done.

But are there really any Neanderthal DNA availible?

I also saw the show last night.

They sawed a piece out of a Neanderthal bone to do DNA tests. So evidently DNA can still be extracted and usable.

They said there are about eight gene mutations noted since we started in Africa, and the Neanderthals have about 24 mutations. I don't know how they determine this, but that is one of the main reasons given for Neanderthals not being direct ancestors.

Bob

 

[MRC_Hans]

I heard a theory some time ago that red hair was a Neanderthal gene.

*snip*
Rolfe.

I'll tell that to my wife .

On second thought, maybe not .

Hans

 

[pupdog]

There's an article in Science magazine (1 October 2004) reporting on a meeting of Perspectives of Human Origins, held in Gibraltar last August. The topic was how Neanderthals may have dressed, since it was damn cold then and even their "cold-adapted" physiques could not withstand the wind chills that would have been common then. The photo of the Neanderthal in a suit (yes, a restoration) was interesting--looked like a certain political figure. However, the article did not go into detail concerning their relations during the period in which they coexisted (in Europe, something like 40,000 years ago to 25,000 years ago).

(I'm not sure if non-members can view the article or summary at http://aaasmember.org).

 

[Correa Neto]

There is a claim from Protuguese scientists that there some fossiles from Iberian peninsula (specially one from a child) actually represent a hybrid between sapiens and neanderthalensis. That would indicate a degree of interbreeding. Perhaps a localized phenomena. I shall not use use of this to do any joke about the Portuguese, since there are already a lot of them.

Other scientists refute the claim, arguing that its just from an individual with some special physiological traits.

Regadless of the above discussion, there is a lot of controversy on how our cousins entered the road to oblivion. They range from active warfare to some milder variants.

Neanderthals, it seems, were not as nomadic as sapiens. Thus they were much more affected by the end of the last Ice Age. Our nomadic ancestors could, for example, follow herds, pass the winter season by the sea at a milder weather, etc. In sum, they were more adaptable, and even without actively fighting our cousins, they may have paved the road for their extinction.

 

[Badger]

From what I understand, it's not as simple as mtDNA.

That just identifies a common female ancestor, sometimes referred to as an "Eve". The common male ancestor, referred to as "Adam" was traced to the middle east around 60 000 yrs ago. So, between Eve and Adam is a significant time period where other sets of genes including Neanderthal, can still propagate into our common genetic stream.

There's good reading on this site http://www.modernhumanorigins.com/phpBB2/index.php even though it seems pretty dead.

There is also the issue with analysis of domestication of dogs, and the genetic separation of head lice and body lice (indicative of wearing clothes).

The story is far from complete!

 

[Brown]

Did anyone notice that a Neandertal hit a grand slam in the Yankees-Res Sox game?

Just kiddin'. Actually, it was Johnny Damon, but some of the shots of him on television showed him as a thick-browed, hirsute man:

(This is a Reuters photo.)