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Nature, Britannica and wikipedia

I'm not surprised Britannica found numerous discrepencies in the study. Nature wouldn't have had much of a story if Britannica was shown to be a much higher quality work.

I'm also not surprised Nature won't allow Britannica access to the full study data. I'm sure they would have been very accommodating if they had confidence in the accuracy of the study.

Nature seems to be getting more unreliable with every issue.
 
The Register has an article about it.
Independent experts were sent 50 unattributed articles from both Wikipedia and Britannica, and the journal claimed that Britannica turned up 123 "errors" to Wikipedia's 162.

But Nature sent only misleading fragments of some Britannica articles to the reviewers, sent extracts of the children's version and Britannica's "book of the year" to others, and in one case, simply stitched together bits from different articles and inserted its own material, passing it off as a single Britannica entry.
 
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I'm not surprised Britannica found numerous discrepencies in the study. Nature wouldn't have had much of a story if Britannica was shown to be a much higher quality work.

You are going to need some pretty good evidence to support that claim. In case you have foggten a lot of newspapers were haveing great fun at the time selling wikipedia is unreliable stories.

I'm also not surprised Nature won't allow Britannica access to the full study data. I'm sure they would have been very accommodating if they had confidence in the accuracy of the study.

Mostly thats down to the reviewers wishing to remain Anonymous.

Nature seems to be getting more unreliable with every issue.

Evidence?
 
The Register has an article about it.

Ah yes good old Mr Orlowski.

Page one is basicaly a restatement of britanca's press release. Page 2 is where things get interesting. First there is his citation of aetherometry.com. The people who run this site got into a bit of a tangle with some wikipedians who seemed to think that wikipedia had to have an article on aetherometry that it should have at least a passing relationship with reality (ie aetherometry is not protoscience). In any case the site is not a reliabe source by any reasonable standards.

The article then goes on to talk about the vertial markets. These don't really behave in the same way as wikipedia and as such are a rather seperate issue.
 
Once you dig into the detail of the critism a lot of it boils down to "you claim this we claim this".

And the very fact that much of that criticism can be so boiled down suggest a deep flaw in Nature's methodology(*).

But I think there's some much more critical issues that don't simply boil down. A number of the "errors" found are based on misrepresentations of what Britannica actually publishes. Of the forty-two "errors" found, two were based on articles in the Book of the Year; one was based on the Student Encyclopedia and apparently on another unknown document; one was based on the introduction, not the complete article; three were based on sections of articles excerpted from their true context; and one was a Frankenstein-like composition of multiple independent articles. That's nearly 20% of the total errors found -- and Britannica doesn't have access to the full data to check the rest.

That level of mishandling of the data amounts almost to scientific fraud, if not outright libel. It certainly reflects badly on the competence of the original scholars. If I wrote a book review for a journal, the editor and readers have the right to assume that the book I reviewed is actually the one I said I reviewed. If I didn't -- and more importantly, if someone proved that I didn't -- that might have serious negative consequences for me and for my career. At the very least, I suspect that the editor of that particular journal would never accept a book review from me again. At the worst, that kind of scientific misconduct could cost me my position....







(*) Or the methodology of author of the original article, if you prefer, although Nature still should have caught it.
 
You can narrow it down to one flaw?

Well, the observation you made -- that a lot of the criticism boils down to a "this is a mistake/no it isn't" -- does suggest a single flaw. Nature (by which read, the author of the original study) should have checked the checkers.

There are other flaws, of course. In particular, the checkers can't be blamed for errors that they found in articles that Britannica hadn't written. The checkers also can't be blamed for Nature's inability to correctly ascertain the significance of errors the checkers identified. And my most serious concern about the whole study is something neither Nature nor Britannica discussed, namely the legitimacy and representativeness of the article sample chosen.

My point was simply that -- as far as I can tell -- the original Nature article wasn't very well done, which in turn discredits any results it may have claimed.
 
You are going to need some pretty good evidence to support that claim. In case you have foggten a lot of newspapers were haveing great fun at the time selling wikipedia is unreliable stories.
I have nothing against wikipedia and I applaud the efforts being made. My comments were directed at the apparent hatchet job done by Nature regarding Britannica. I wouldn't call wikipedia unreliable, but I would call it less reliable than Britannica. If your son or daughter was doing research for a school paper and they found conficting information between wikipedia and Britannica, which source would you tell them to use? I'd say use Britannica.

Mostly thats down to the reviewers wishing to remain Anonymous.
It has nothing to do with the reviewers remaining anonymous. It has to do with data access. Reviewer anonymity can be maintained.

Evidence?
Since I was only giving an opinion, I don't think evidence is required. But the fact that Britannica is calling Nature to task seems to fit the bill.
 
Well, the observation you made -- that a lot of the criticism boils down to a "this is a mistake/no it isn't" -- does suggest a single flaw. Nature (by which read, the author of the original study) should have checked the checkers.

There are other flaws, of course. In particular, the checkers can't be blamed for errors that they found in articles that Britannica hadn't written. The checkers also can't be blamed for Nature's inability to correctly ascertain the significance of errors the checkers identified. And my most serious concern about the whole study is something neither Nature nor Britannica discussed, namely the legitimacy and representativeness of the article sample chosen.

My point was simply that -- as far as I can tell -- the original Nature article wasn't very well done, which in turn discredits any results it may have claimed.

You missed the issue that any attempt at blinding was pretty much doomed (wikipedia and britanica have very different writeing styles).
 
Nature responds. That an academic journal stated that "It is regrettable that Britannica chose to make its objections public without first informing us of them and giving us a chance to respond" is somewhat disappointing. Isn't all of this stuff supposed to be hashed out in the light of day?
 
I have nothing against wikipedia and I applaud the efforts being made. My comments were directed at the apparent hatchet job done by Nature regarding Britannica. I wouldn't call wikipedia unreliable, but I would call it less reliable than Britannica. If your son or daughter was doing research for a school paper and they found conficting information between wikipedia and Britannica, which source would you tell them to use? I'd say use Britannica.

I the hyperthical situation I'd have to say it depends.

It has nothing to do with the reviewers remaining anonymous. It has to do with data access. Reviewer anonymity can be maintained.

Not really. It would be fairly trivial to figure of from the notes who was who.

Since I was only giving an opinion, I don't think evidence is required. But the fact that Britannica is calling Nature to task seems to fit the bill.

Trying to establish a trendline form one data point is not a widely accepted statistical technique outside british estate agents.
 
Nature responds. That an academic journal stated that "It is regrettable that Britannica chose to make its objections public without first informing us of them and giving us a chance to respond" is somewhat disappointing. Isn't all of this stuff supposed to be hashed out in the light of day?

More to the point, if that's the best counter-argument Nature can make, then it's tantamount to an admission of guilt.

It's rather like the old cops' rule of thumb that an innocent person denies the fact, a guilty one denies the evidence or procedure.

E.g., I accuse manny of a wide variety of heinous crimes, including carrying a concealed tuna fish without a licence.

If manny responds "Don't be ridiculous -- I've never done that," he's probably innocent.

If manny responds "Who told you that? You have no proof," he's likely to be guilty.
 
You missed the issue that any attempt at blinding was pretty much doomed (wikipedia and britanica have very different writeing styles).


You're right, I did. One more reason to distrust the Nature article.
 
Yeah, I'm kind of gape-jawed right now. To non-scientists like me, Nature was the schiznets. If they said something, that's my view of the latest science until proven otherwise. Now I learn they screw the pooch on something this simple? I don't know that I can trust them any better than Lancet now.







It was a herring.
 
Nature responds. That an academic journal stated that "It is regrettable that Britannica chose to make its objections public without first informing us of them and giving us a chance to respond" is somewhat disappointing. Isn't all of this stuff supposed to be hashed out in the light of day?

Yes and no. Publishing something a press release without at least informing the people you are attacking first is impolite.

Interesting that we get at least one outright denial from nature

In one instance Britannica alleges that we provided a reviewer with material that was not from the Britannica website. We have checked and are confident that this was notthe case.
 
Well, I'm not really very comfortable with ad-populum decision methods, which is what Wiki boils down to.
 
Yeah, I'm kind of gape-jawed right now. To non-scientists like me, Nature was the schiznets. If they said something, that's my view of the latest science until proven otherwise. Now I learn they screw the pooch on something this simple? I don't know that I can trust them any better than Lancet now.

Lancet is pretty good for the most part.

The top journals have a problem. Unlike say the journal of sound and vibration they need to sell beyond universities and industy specialists.
 

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