Natural Selection: Can we drop the qualifier, "Natural"? It's time.

Buckyball

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Natural Selection... as opposed to... what, exactly?

Everything is "Natural", is it not? Else, what? "Supernatural"?


Let's drop the qualifier. The same "selection" that operates on our Earth-based organisms operates on vast clouds of dust and massive bodies and the cores of stars and the structures of our favorite molecules.


Let's just call it all, "Selection". From now on.

Deal?
 
Natural Selection... as opposed to... what, exactly?

Everything is "Natural", is it not? Else, what? "Supernatural"?


Let's drop the qualifier. The same "selection" that operates on our Earth-based organisms operates on vast clouds of dust and massive bodies and the cores of stars and the structures of our favorite molecules.


Let's just call it all, "Selection". From now on.

Deal?

As opposed to just plain selection, when used for breeding.

In the time of Darwin, people who raised livestock were in the process of developing new breeds of domestic animals by means of selective breeding. They selected which animals could mate with each other based on desired characteristics, and this selective breeding resulted in new varieties of animals that had characteristics that would be shared by their descendants.

Darwin theorized that nature itself also performed this sort of selection, based on fitness to the environment in which organisms lived. His use of the term "natural selection" was meant to draw a parallel between the way nature selected organisms based on their ability to survive and breed in a specific environment, and the way that the herdsman selected organisms based on them having characteristics that the herdsman desired. In other words, "natural selection" was selection that was performed by nature, rather than by man.
 
Natural Selection... as opposed to... what, exactly?

Everything is "Natural", is it not? Else, what? "Supernatural"?

As opposed to artificial selection, i.e. planned breeding programs. Shih Tzu dogs, Clydesdale horses, and triticale grain didn't arise via natural selection.
 
Natural Selection... as opposed to... what, exactly?

Everything is "Natural", is it not? Else, what? "Supernatural"?


Let's drop the qualifier. The same "selection" that operates on our Earth-based organisms operates on vast clouds of dust and massive bodies and the cores of stars and the structures of our favorite molecules.


Let's just call it all, "Selection". From now on.

Deal?

To start with, the 'natural selection' usually talked about in terms of evolution isn't going to apply to dust, plasma, and molecules. It's operating in the context of reproduction, mutation, and selection.

Beyond that, I believe that 'natural' is meant to separate itself from 'artificial' such that while acknowledging humans are a part of the natural order, there is still obvious utility in drawing a distinction between human-driven and non-human-driven processes.
 
As opposed to artificial selection, i.e. planned breeding programs. Shih Tzu dogs, Clydesdale horses, and triticale grain didn't arise via natural selection.

This. Natural selection is a term of art with a specific meaning. Selection includes both the natural and artificial sort, and hence has a different meaning than natural selection.
 
"As opposed to just plain selection, when used for breeding."

They the breeders are the ones who need a new term, as the term "selection" doesn't just apply to recombination of DNA. It also applies to the shapes of all other molecules, etc

Also, everything mankind does is "natural". When beavers build dams in the same place for 50 generations, causing evolutionary change in other local organisms... is that not "natural selection"? it is.
 
"To start with, the 'natural selection' usually talked about in terms of evolution isn't going to apply to dust, plasma, and molecules."

Of course it is. Your DNA is made up of molecules. If a new chemical is introduced into your environment by a wellspring or a bombardment that causes your DNA to, say, make more errors when recombining... that IS, indeed, "natural selection".
 
Humans are not supernatural. We are chemical machines, just as are the insects that help pollinate plants. there is nothing "unnatural" about designing GMOs, just as there is nothing "unnatural" about tool using hominids changing the average size of a population of megafauna by killing off many of the larger animals.
 
Also, everything mankind does is "natural".

Humans are not supernatural.

OK, I think I see the point you are trying to make. The "natural" vs. "artificial" dichotomy is in some ways a false one because it implies that there is something about human beings that isn't "natural". We are, after all, just another species of animal and not, as the old religions would have it, another category of thing entirely.

The point is not lost on me and I've made similar points myself in other ways.

But at the end of the day this sort of thinking is so deeply ingrained in our culture that we are not likely to get rid of it. People (some of them anyway) are very concerned that the food they eat is "natural" instead of "artificial". When you say the word "animal" most people think of animals other than human beings, and if you call a person an "animal" even though it is literally true, they will take it as an insult.

So I get your point, I think, but good luck getting everyone to go go along with it. I maintain that there are still times where the word "natural" is a useful distinction, even though it often gets abused.
 
As opposed to artificial selection, i.e. planned breeding programs. Shih Tzu dogs, Clydesdale horses, and triticale grain didn't arise via natural selection.

It is natural for human beings to select things. They select their tools, they select their ornaments, they select their friends, they select their homes. The term 'value system' refers to the criteria by which human beings to select things.

Nonhuman animals also select things. However, humans are specialists in selection. We select what things to select. We should be called 'Homo selectus' rather than 'Homo sapiens'.

Therefore, the selection that humans make is intrinsically natural. So when a scientist uses artificial breeding to simulate evolution, then he is manipulating 'natural selection'.

That is the semantic point that I think the OP is making. The point seems trivial to me.

The word 'breeding' should be reserved for biological selection that is intentionally manipulated by human beings. 'Value system'' should be reserved for the type of criterion humans use to select the things humans select for.
 
Humans are not supernatural. We are chemical machines, just as are the insects that help pollinate plants. there is nothing "unnatural" about designing GMOs, just as there is nothing "unnatural" about tool using hominids changing the average size of a population of megafauna by killing off many of the larger animals.

I see, so artificial selection, sexual selection and other useful distinctions need no longer apply?

On second thoughts, why bother dropping "natural"? Why not drop "selection" instead?

That way, when anyone says "How did this come about?" we can answer "Nature!"

"What about ebola?" - "Nature!"
"German shepherd dogs?" - "Nature!"
"Tokyo Sky Tree?" - "Nature!"
"Billy Joel?" - "Nature!"

With this one word we have made all the rest of scientific enquiry redundant!
 
I see, so artificial selection, sexual selection and other useful distinctions need no longer apply?

On second thoughts, why bother dropping "natural"? Why not drop "selection" instead?

That way, when anyone says "How did this come about?" we can answer "Nature!"

"What about ebola?" - "Nature!"
"German shepherd dogs?" - "Nature!"
"Tokyo Sky Tree?" - "Nature!"
"Billy Joel?" - "Nature!"

With this one word we have made all the rest of scientific enquiry redundant!
There's another concern about Buckyball's terminology, which I hope is unjustified.
... there is nothing "unnatural" about tool using hominids changing the average size of a population of megafauna by killing off many of the larger animals.
This of course means that there is no possible distinction, using that terminology, between "natural" and "anthropogenic" changes in the environment. AGW becomes by definition a "natural" phenomenon.
 
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I agree and add "What about sophistry?" - "Nature!"

Buckyball's argument is not subtle at all: The premise is dropping the term "natural" and her/his explanation only points to drop the term "selection". Or, did any of you believe the «Everything is "Natural", is it not? Else, what? "Supernatural"?» bit? The only question is whether the term "supernatural" was introduced just to make a strawman or not.
 
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Natural Selection... as opposed to... what, exactly?

As opposed to all the OTHER types of selection out there.

Artificial selection was separated from natural selection in the beginning specifically to allow Darwin and others to say "You accept that humans can do this sort of thing. If we can do it, Nature can as well--so if you accept artificial selection, you must accept natural selection as equally valid." Yeah, it's all natural, but from a rhetorical standpoint dividing the two was effective.

Sexual selection is distinct because natural selection tends to increase fitness, while sexual selection can basically do whatever it wants. A lot of organisms have things that make no sense from the perspective of increasing fitness to the local environment, such as bright colors on otherwise drab birds, bright spots on fish, elaborate dances, and the iconic peacock tail. The reason? Women find them sexy. Understanding the role of "Hey, that's kinda hot" in evolution was a major advancement, and warrants a unique term to guide our thoughts on the topic by reminding us that sexually reproductive organisms may have unique issues.

Genetic drift isn't actually selection at all, but rather random shifts in allel frequency due to statistical phenomena. I shouldn't have to point out the advancements that were made once this was discovered.

Ontogenetic issues are coming to light now as well. We've been extremely hesitant to address these factors, particularly pre-birth/hatching factors, because of some mistakes researchers made in the past; evo-devo is, however, starting to show that a rather enormous portion of selection occurs before the organism ever draws breath.

Then there are aspects of organisms that aren't selected for at all, but exist due to structural or historical considerations--for example, our four-limb bauplan isn't due to any sort of selection, it just happened that the lobe-finned fishes that we evolved from had four limbs. For more on this, look into the history of fingers and toes. Or some rather....strange.....research on adding weighted "tails" to chickens that came out recently. (I am not even slightly joking here; someone put clay cones with sticks in them on the back ends of chickens to see how they walk, FOR SCIENCE! :D )

Then there's just plain old fashioned bad luck. I don't care what your genes are, you get hit with a 10 km rock falling from space you--and probably all of your population, if not species--don't get to pass your genes on to the next generation. It has nothing to do with fitness for an environment; it's just (from the perspective of evolution and the biosphere) pure random chance who gets to live and who becomes part of a fireball that hit three states.

There are others I'm forgetting off-hand (the kid had a nightmare and I was up half the night with him, so my brain is't at peak efficiency). My point is, there are a myriad of selective processes that we've identified. Natural selection, properly understood, is one of them.

You're stripping the phrase "natural selection" from its historical context and looking only at the vernacular use of the words in the phrase--both of which are unwarranted when dealing with highly technical jargon (and yes, "natural selection" IS highly technical jargon). The phrase doesn't mean "selection that is natural"; you can't break it into its constituent parts and figure out what it means that way. Rather, the phrase means the suite of selection processes that the organism is subject to. Typically this excludes human factors, but that's because human factors we have more control over (ie, we can stop shooting rattlesnakes but we have a harder time addressing rainfall).
 
Natural nuclear reactor (Oklo)? Three Mile Island obeys natural laws too.

Natural radioactivity (U/Th in rocks)? Radioactive at Chernobyl isn't supernatural.

Natural satellite (the Moon)? The Hubble Telescope was put there by man, who is an animal, which is natural.

Natural history (zoology/ecology/earth science)? The study of the Tudors is also the study of non-supernatural organisms.

Come on. This is how languages work. The word "natural" typically means "not made by man or technology". It's only in rare and specialized circumstances (skeptic discussion boards? where else?) that the word "natural" means simply "not supernatural".
 
Also remember that this term isn't without historical context. Sure, we shouldn't be slaves to history--but at the same time, there are real, practical consequences to dramatic shifts in the way words are used. Read an 18th or early 19th century geology publication, for example, and you will quickly become confused--they used the term "fossil' to mean "something dug up", so you get curious constructions like "organic fossil" or "inorganic fossil". Makes life confusing for folks who have to dig into the past. Plus, there's a certain amount of respect owed to the folks who founded such a key dicipline as evolutionary biology. Even if the terms aren't 100% literal, we can use them as a silent salute to the folks who made our work possible.
 
I see, so artificial selection, sexual selection and other useful distinctions need no longer apply?

On second thoughts, why bother dropping "natural"? Why not drop "selection" instead?

That way, when anyone says "How did this come about?" we can answer "Nature!"

"What about ebola?" - "Nature!"
"German shepherd dogs?" - "Nature!"
"Tokyo Sky Tree?" - "Nature!"
"Billy Joel?" - "Nature!"
With this one word we have made all the rest of scientific enquiry redundant!

I wuz with you , right up to the highlighted bit...
 
That's the fail of nearly all people who try and make pedantic arguments in favor of these types of equivocations. Assuming they do actually succeed in changing the meaning of terms like "natural" in certain contexts, there still is the problem of needing to invent a new term(s) to express the concept vacated by the earlier term. One really hasn't gained anything except confusion while the new terminology begins to take over.

In some cases that could be useful if people really are generally having problems avoiding equivocating the current terminology. I sincerely doubt that is the case when it comes to "natural" selection. To me seems easier to simply educate people to avoid equivocating the term.
 
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