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My Response to Paul Watson

MarkyX

Master Poster
Joined
Jun 1, 2006
Messages
2,157
I'm putting this in a seperate thread because I'm mainly asking for feedback. The original version will have links supporting my claims on the website. If Brainster wants to post this on his Screw Loose Change blog, I have no problem with this.

ZEE ARTICLE


When you have to resort to personal attacks or worse, striking at one’s skill with the English language, others might view you as cornering yourself in the defensive because you cannot refute their claims or facts.

While this is common tactic among the low level 9/11 Deniers, such as the ones that obey the word of Alex Jones without question and wear their “Investigate 9/11” uniforms with pride, it is rare for someone high up in the 9/11 Denier pyramid to start resorting to such tactics. This brings us to the good news: Paul Joseph Watson has lowered himself to using these tactics in a recent article on Prison Planet.

Paul Joseph Watson is considered to be Alex Jones’ “Al-Zawahiri” and a highly respected member among the 9/11 Denier crowd. And if you are reading this Paul, don’t be so offended by the comparison with Al-Zawahiri. He doesn’t exist, just like Al-Qaeda, so why get angry?

In the article, he attacks the website Debunking911.com for being “littered with misspellings, inaccurate terms and middle school level grammar.”

He doesn’t try to counter his claims or use any “evidence” for his side. He simply points at the spelling and grammatical error while yelling “He is wrong because he is misusing plurals!” As I stated earlier, if you have to resort to these types of attacks, you are demonstrating that you cannot counter someone’s argument.

The only bit of effort he tries to bring in any sort of discussion is the Pull It. Unfortunately for Paul, this section of the article shows his lack of research skills and reading comprehension. He uses a quote from Debunking911.com.

“In the afternoon of September 11, Mr. Silverstein spoke to the Fire Department Commander on site at Seven World Trade Center. The Commander told Mr. Silverstein that there were several firefighters in the building working to contain the fires. Mr. Silverstein expressed his view that the most important thing was to protect the safety of those firefighters, including, if necessary, to have them withdraw from the building.”

And he compares it the infamous Popular Mechanics article, quoting NIST saying “There was no firefighting in WTC7.”

There is a little problem with using this as an argument. If you are saying that Popular Mechanics debunks Debunking911.com claim, then you are essentially agreeing with what Popular Mechanics states and therefore, no 9/11 conspiracy theory. That is just one minor detail in the bigger picture.

He then writes, “Which is it to be? Firemen or no firemen? Pull or nothing to pull?”

Apparently Paul does not understand that presence of firemen does not automatically mean they are putting out the fires. But why take my word for it? Let’s look what some firefighters at WTC7 had to say and a report.

Deputy Chief Peter Hayden
Division 1 - 33 years

...also we were pretty sure that 7 World Trade Center would collapse. Early on, we saw a bulge in the southwest corner between floors 10 and 13, and we had put a transit on that and we were pretty sure she was going to collapse. You actually could see there was a visible bulge, it ran up about three floors. It came down about 5 o’clock in the afternoon, but by about 2 o’clock in the afternoon we realized this thing was going to collapse.

Firehouse: Was there heavy fire in there right away?

Hayden: No, not right away, and that’s probably why it stood for so long because it took a while for that fire to develop. It was a heavy body of fire in there and then we didn’t make any attempt to fight it. That was just one of those wars we were just going to lose. We were concerned about the collapse of a 47-story building there. We were worried about additional collapse there of what was remaining standing of the towers and the Marriott, so we started pulling the people back after a couple of hours of surface removal and searches along the surface of the debris. We started to pull guys back because we were concerned for their safety.
http://www.firehouse.com/terrorist/911/magazine/gz/hayden.html

There was an engine company... right underneath building 7 and it was still burning at the time. They had a hose in operation, but you could tell there was no pressure. It was barely making it across the street.
http://www.firehouse.com/terrorist/911/magazine/gz/boyle.html

Located about five blocks from the World Trade Center (WTC) site, the 170-bed NYU Downtown Hospital was thrust into one of the most horrific events in history on Tuesday, Sept. 11...

Shortly after the second tower collapsed...due to the number of hydrants opened by the firefighters on the scene, we also lost water pressure to the building, leading to fears of losing water altogether. Staff were immediately notified to conserve water...

By 4 p.m. on Tuesday, gas and high-pressure steam had been restored through rerouting by Con Edison. Before the gas was turned on, the utility ran extensive tests to ensure that there were no leaks. About an hour later, the water pressure slowly started to increase, and the facility was once again able to sterilize instruments and provide domestic hot water.
http://www.unbr.cz/groundzeroen.htm

In short, there wasn’t enough water pressure to fight the fires.

Let’s continue.

"WTC Building 7 appears to have suffered significant damage at some point after the WTC Towers had collapsed, according to firefighters at the scene. Firefighter Butch Brandies tells other firefighters that nobody is to go into Building 7 because of creaking and noises coming out of there. [Firehouse Magazine, 8/02]

According to Deputy Chief Peter Hayden, there is a bulge in the southwest corner of the building between floors 10 and 13. [Firehouse Magazine, 4/02]

Battalion Chief John Norman later recalls, “At the edge of the south face you could see that it is very heavily damaged.” [Firehouse Magazine, 5/02]

Deputy Chief Nick Visconti also later recalls recounts, “A big chunk of the lower floors had been taken out on the Vesey Street side.” Captain Chris Boyle recalls, “On the south side of 7 there had to be a hole 20 stories tall in the building, with fire on several floors.” [Firehouse Magazine, 8/02]

"The most important operational decision to be made that afternoon was the collapse (Of the WTC towers) had damaged 7 World Trade Center, which is about a 50 story building, at Vesey between West Broadway and Washington Street. It had very heavy fire on many floors and I ordered the evacuation of an area sufficient around to protect our members, so we had to give up some rescue operations that were going on at the time and back the people away far enough so that if 7 World Trade did collapse, we [wouldn't] lose any more people. We continued to operate on what we could from that distance and approximately an hour and a half after that order was [given], at 5:30 in the afternoon, World Trade Center collapsed completely" - Daniel Nigro
http://www.nytimes.com/packages/htm...igro_Daniel.txt

"They told us to get out of there because they were worried about 7 World Trade Center, which is right behind it, coming down. We were up on the upper floors of the Verizon building looking at it. You could just see the whole bottom corner of the building was gone. We could look right out over to where the Trade Centers were because we were that high up. Looking over the smaller buildings. I just remember it was tremendous, tremendous fires going on. Finally they pulled us out. They said all right, get out of that building because that 7, they were really worried about. They pulled us out of there and then they regrouped everybody on Vesey Street, between the water and West Street. They put everybody back in there. Finally it did come down. From there - this is much later on in the day, because every day we were so worried about that building we didn't really want to get people close. They were trying to limit the amount of people that were in there. Finally it did come down." - Richard Banaciski
http://www.nytimes.com/packages/htm...ski_Richard.txt

"Early on, there was concern that 7 World Trade Center might have been both impacted by the collapsing tower and had several fires in it and there was a concern that it might collapse. So we instructed that a collapse area -- (Q. A collapse zone?) -- Yeah -- be set up and maintained so that when the expected collapse of 7 happened, we wouldn't have people working in it. There was considerable discussion with Con Ed regarding the substation in that building and the feeders and the oil coolants and so on. And their concern was of the type of fire we might have when it collapsed." - Chief Cruthers
http://www.nytimes.com/packages/htm...IC/Cruthers.txt

"Then we found out, I guess around 3:00 [o'clock], that they thought 7 was going to collapse. So, of course, [we've] got guys all in this pile over here and the main concern was get everybody out, and I guess it took us over an hour and a half, two hours to get everybody out of there. (Q. Initially when you were there, you had said you heard a few Maydays?) Oh, yes. We had Maydays like crazy.... The heat must have been tremendous. There was so much [expletive] fire there. This whole pile was burning like crazy. Just the heat and the smoke from all the other buildings on fire, you [couldn't] see anything. So it took us a while and we ended up backing everybody out, and [that's] when 7 collapsed.... Basically, we fell back for 7 to collapse, and then we waited a while and it got a lot more organized, I would guess." - William Ryan
http://www.nytimes.com/packages/htm...yan_William.txt

PAGE 108 There are various reports of firefighters in the building. Some at 11:30, some later between 12:30 and 2:00.

At sometime after 11:30 there were numerous firefighters and officers coming out of building 7. These firefighters indicated that several blocks needed to be cleared around building 7 because they thought the building was going to collapse. See page 110
http://wtc.nist.gov/pubs/NISTNCSTAR1-81.pdf

The firefighters at WTC7 were there because they were doing a search and rescue to …you guessed it, pull people out of there. They did want to fight the fires, but however were quite limited because of lack of water pressure, hence no “firefighting”. The building was also giving away signs of a possible collapse. They set up a collapse zone, got people out of the area, and waited for it to collapse. No causalities and all is well.

Not quite, Paul still can’t get rid of that “Pull It” bug. As I stated in the Screw Loose Change video and Frequently Stupid Theories document, “Pull It” is not a term used by controlled demolitions to destroy a building using explosives.

Brett Blanchard works in the controlled demolition industry. This is what he stated:

We have never once heard the term "pull it" being used to refer to the explosive demolition of a building, and neither has any blast team we've spoken with. The term is used in conventional demolition circles, to describe the specific activity of attaching long cables to a pre-weakened building and maneuvering heavy equipment (excavators, bulldozers, etc.) to "pull" the frame of the structure over onto its side for further dismantlement.
http://www.jod911.com/WTC COLLAPSE STUDY BBlanchard 8-8-06.pdf

The Popular Mechanics book also addresses this.

Four demolition and engineering experts tell Popular Mechanics that pull it is not slang for controlled demolition. "I've never heard of it," says Jon Magnusson of Magnusson Klemencic Associates.

Ron Dokell, retired president of Olshan Demolishing Company, says the same thing. Mark Loizeaux of Controlled Demolition, Inc. adds that the only way he can imagine the term being used is in reference to a proces where the legs of a structure are precut and attached to cables, and then large machines are used to literally pull the building to the ground.
http://www.amazon.com/Debunking-11-...6635X/ref=sr_11_1/104-6098036-7150331?ie=UTF8

America Rebuilds documentary also shows another example of “Pull It”

Worker #1: Oh, we’re getting ready to pull building six.

Luis Mendes: We have to be very careful how we demolish building six. We were worried about the building six coming down and demolishing the slurry wall, so we wanted that particular building to fall within a certain area.

Worker #1: We’ve got the cables attached in four different locations... Now they’re pulling [gestures to vehicles] pulling the building to the north. It’s not every day you try to pull down an eight storey building with cables”
http://www.911myths.com/PullBuildingSix.avi

In the next paragraph, Paul brings up Steven Jones who was recently on paid leave by his University. Of course, many 9/11 Deniers like to compare Steven Jones to other great scientists, saying he is being persecuted for his “intellect”. Paul claims the reason for his paid leave was due to World Net Daily stating that Steven Jones wanted to violently overthrow the government. I didn’t even heard much about this, but apparently it wasn’t true and was pulled by World Net Daily.

However, I have a hunch that it might have little to do with this, but instead on the fact that Steven Jones didn’t talk to any materials/structural engineers, never did any experiments proving that thermite can cut in straight diagonal angles, never proving that the sulfur he found is truly from thermite instead of sulfur-based drywall, never proving that thermite is actually used in controlled demolition (name one incident), never proving that his photos contained molten steel, and creating a fictional “peer review group” to look like legitimate science.

No, it was the article World Net Daily reported that no one really knew about.

The next paragraph is my favorite, mainly because it deals with me. Paul is stupid enough to link to my 9/11 Deniers Speak Part 1/5 on YouTube and comments on the first audio clip I used involving Dylan Avery in Jack’s Blood show. I’m sure if you are reading this, you are quite aware what it is: Dylan and Jack laughing at the idea of people submitting to a combat-trained knife wielding lunatic who threatened the passengers that he had bombs. They also bring Chick Burlingame, mocking her for believing that her pilot fought for his life against “these deadly terrorists.”

He writes in the article that the video is “implicating that trashing the official story is insulting to the victims.”

Paul doesn’t seem to understand the concept of “questioning” and “laughing”. You see Paul, asking questions such as why did the President testify for the 9/11 Commission behind closed doors are legitimate. I do agree that something like that needs to be answered. However, jumping into conclusions, which you can see the Jersey Girls do this in a self-promotion movie called 9/11 Press for Truth, will lead to nowhere.

But laughing? Laughing at the idea that people are scared ******** over 10,000 feet in the air with a few crazies speaking Arabic and wielding sharp steel? Did you also laugh with Jim Fetzer and Alex Jones at the 9/11 Conference in LA when Jim talks about Mark Bingham? What about Dylan Avery accusing Bernard Brown of sending his son to die on Flight 77?

These aren’t questions Paul. They are accusations that tried to hide themselves under a sheet known as the question mark. I’ll give you an example. Why don’t you ask Alex Jones if his wife is a whore? Just tell him you are “just asking questions”, no accusations are being made. Right?

On a final note, the last paragraph of the article also mentions the Billard Ball theory. Here is the quote:

We urge our readers to comb through this website for themselves - it won't be long before you run across bizarre leftfield arguments (at one point the collapse of the twin towers is compared to two pool balls hitting each other), confounding statements that are an affront to the English language, and outright errors concerning the claims of the 9/11 truth movement.

Funny because the Billard Ball theory is created by Mechanical Engineer, Judy Wood, which is linked on the Scholars for 9/11 Truth website. Debunking911.com is actually refuting this claim on their website.

Talk about eating your own and having poor reading comprehension.
 
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Nice, Marky. I couldn't follow the paragraphs about Steven Jones though. Since I don't know what World Net Daily is or the article therein, it was very difficult to read and make sense of that part.

The Judy Wood paragraph at the end doesn't read to well either. Gotta get these things right apparently, coz bad grammar proves the gubmint did it!
 
Markyx:

Well done, without lowering yourself to his level. Don't expect a reply, though, unless you email it to him. His actions indicate cowardice, so I will be amazed if he has the nuts to form any kind of a rebuttal.

TAM
 
No I don't expect a reply. I will post on the main Screw Loose Change video website just to see what a joke this "Movement" is. The only reason why the movement got so big is because they never had opponents.

Now they do, it seems they can't handle it.
 
In a thread at 911blogger Paul states:
"To conclude - why did NIST report there were no firefighters in 7 and yet Silverstein said "pull it" meant to withdraw them from the building?"
http://www.911blogger.com/node/3111?page=1
Whoops..... should of read the NIST report starting with page 108
http://wtc.nist.gov/pubs/NISTNCSTAR1-81.pdf

Yeah I was about to put that. The report does not mention specifically that it was fire fighting though. My guess is they were examining the damage.
 
Yeah I was about to put that. The report does not mention specifically that it was fire fighting though. My guess is they were examining the damage.
They were ordered to go put out the fires and went into the building but little firefighting was done.

One book does mention some possible firefighting. Although it doesn't seem it was for very long. It could be that they were just getting ready to start fighting fires.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/explorer/0385507682/2/ref=pd_lpo_ase/002-3476908-5867267?
"According to Captain Michael Currid, the sergeant at arms for the Uniformed Fire Officers Association, some time after the collapse of the North Tower, he sees four or five fire companies trying to extinguish fires in Building 7 of the WTC. Someone from the city?7;s Office of Emergency Management tells him that WTC 7 is in serious danger of collapse. Currid says, “The consensus was that it was basically a lost cause and we should not lose anyone else trying to save it.” Along with some others, he goes inside WTC 7 and yells up the stairwells to the fire fighters, “Drop everything and get out!” [Murphy, 2002, pp. 175-176]

http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/...tles=on&descriptions=on&dosearch=on&search=Go
Although page 110 states that no firefighing was started according to various interviews.
http://wtc.nist.gov/pubs/NISTNCSTAR1-81.pdf
At 11:30 FNDY ordered the fires to be put out. But when the chief got there, various firefighters were leaving the building and started telling everyone to clear back because they thought the building was going to collapse.

Another possible answer could be some limited firefighting earlier in the day.
 
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The much simpler question, is what else would the FIRE CAPTAIN be able to order "pulled" besides the firemen, or the firefighting unit, or the rescue unit.

TAM
 
The much simpler question, is what else would the FIRE CAPTAIN be able to order "pulled" besides the firemen, or the firefighting unit, or the rescue unit.

TAM

Honestly I think the likely answer is that Mr. Dara McQuillan simply mispoke when he stated: The Commander told Mr. Silverstein that there were several firefighters in the building working to contain the fires.
While we know there were firefighters in the building they were most likely involved in search and rescue and inspection.
Not physically containing the fire in the building.

I'll bet an e-mail could easily clear this up. Aside this minor point, the "pull it" debate is dead as a door nail.

The funny thing is, the more you keep reading the accounts of the firefighters, the more you see that they thought building 7 was going collapse.
 
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Exactly. The funny part is they don't want people to read those firefighter quotes.
 
" I didn’t even heard much about this, but apparently it wasn’t true and was pulled by World Net Daily."

This is the only major thing I caught, but I may have missed a few things.
 
In the article, he attacks the website Debunking911.com for being “littered with misspellings, inaccurate terms and middle school level grammar.”

Sadly, it's appears to be almost universal. If you can tolerate it, listen to just one Alex Jones show. You'll hear these sentiments quite often. It seems to be the denier mantra. "Everyone but me, and those who agree with me, 'doesn't get it.'" "Everyone but me, and those who agree with me, is a moron sheep brainwashed retard dolt." Like you said, even the 'professionals' in the movement don't have the intellectual maturity needed to avoid such hyperbole.

Nice OP.
 
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When you have to resort to personal attacks or worse, striking at one’s skill with the English language, others might view you as cornering yourself in the defensive because you cannot refute their claims or facts.

While this is common tactic among the low level 9/11 Deniers, such as the ones that obey the word of Alex Jones without question and wear their “Investigate 9/11” uniforms with pride, it is rare for someone high up in the 9/11 Denier pyramid to start resorting to such tactics. This brings us to the good news: Paul Joseph Watson has lowered himself to using these tactics in a recent article on Prison Planet.

...
In the article, he attacks the website Debunking911.com for being “littered with misspellings, inaccurate terms and middle school level grammar.”

He doesn’t try to counter his claims or use any “evidence” for his side. He simply points at the spelling and grammatical error while yelling “He is wrong because he is misusing plurals!” As I stated earlier, if you have to resort to these types of attacks, you are demonstrating that you cannot counter someone’s argument.

...

Great letter, Mark.

It is obvious that the Prison Planet folks haven't found anything much of substance to attack so they are resorting to using someone's language skills against them.

That annoys me because the Debunking911 site is chock full of excellent information and yet tinhatters pretend to dismiss it all because of some minor deficiencies.

So, I have spent the last several hours going through the Debunking911 site, copying all of the text and fixing the grammatical and spelling errors, etc. and emailing them to the site administrator. I've got through 16 of the 20 sections so far but the last 4 will have to wait until tomorrow. I have also volunteered to proofread future pages in order to avoid this kind of criticism in future, as my undergrad was in English and I'm a natural proofreader :)
 
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Great letter, Mark.

It is obvious that the Prison Planet folks haven't found anything much of substance to attack so they are resorting to using someone's language skills against them.

That annoys me because the Debunking911 site is chock full of excellent information and yet tinhatters pretend to dismiss it all because of some minor deficiencies.

So, I have spent the last several hours going through the Debunking911 site, copying all of the text and fixing the grammatical and spelling errors, etc. and emailing them to the site administrator. I've got through 16 of the 20 sections so far but the last 4 will have to wait until tomorrow. I have also volunteered to proofread future pages in order to avoid this kind of criticism in future, as my undergrad was in English and I'm a natural proofreader :)

I saw the e-mails. I sometimes help field e-mail questions and I help the site from time to time with research.
I almost thought you were some kind of spam. So far the site has gotten over 60 e-mails from the Alex Jones link. Most negative, but around 7 or 8 positive.
 
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I saw the e-mails. I sometimes help field e-mail questions and I help the site from time to time with research.
I almost thought you were some kind of spam. So far the site has gotten over 60 e-mails from the Alex Jones link. Most negative, but around 7 or 8 positive.

Hi Kent.
No, I'm not a spammer, as I'm sure you saw after reading the attachments :) And, as you'll see from my signature in the emails, I've been around that site for quite some time...
 
Hi Kent.
No, I'm not a spammer, as I'm sure you saw after reading the attachments :) And, as you'll see from my signature in the emails, I've been around that site for quite some time...
Big kudos! I'm sure CS will be happy! LOL!

ScottS
 

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