Malachi151
Graduate Poster
- Joined
- May 24, 2003
- Messages
- 1,404
Hi, great to hear from someone from Turkey. Isn't the internet an amazing thing! Well, I don't exactly agree with what is said at history explained on many issues, especially that of "democratic market societies".
There are always degrees of democracy. In truth the American system is Republican, not Democratic. We just call it Democratic because that's a popular word to use. Our system is one of the more open and more democratic systems in the world, but its far from perfect. This is not really a complaint against America, its more of a statement about humanity itself.
If you study American presidents you see that almost all of them were born wealthy, and that many have common social and family ties. Its still a somewhat elitist system, but its not officially an elitist system and it is POSSIBLE for anyone to become president, its just rare that it happens unless you have an elite family background.
For example Bill Clinton is an example of a man that truly did come from a poor family and become a president by his own actions, but Roosevelt, Truman, Nixon, Eisenhower, Ford, John F. Kennedy, Reagan, Bush, and Bush all have elitist backgrounds or strong social ties to elite groups.
Really the American system is very highly manipulated, its just something that we are currently having to struggle with. Politics is very corrupt here, but I think it is almost everywhere. That's the nature of people, power and corruption go together. Typically its the most corrupt people that make it to the top IMO, in America or in Iraq, or in France, or in Nigeria, or China, or anywhere. Some times, in rare cases a really good person does make it to the top or into good political positions and that's a good thing. The good thing about the American system is that we have elections often so it doesn't even matter that much if corrupt people do get into office because they come and go so much they can't really do too much damage.
Yes, I think that other countries obviously have a problem because their economy relies on exports and the rich people in 3rd world countries are loyal to the West because that is there they earn their money, from foreigners. A country can only really be successful IMO when the most of the money that the rich people in the country are loyal to is domestic.
Look at Turkey. Turkey is home of some of the oldest and richest civilizations in the world. 500 or 600 years ago Turkey was at the center of the economic world. Instanbul/Constantanople used to be one of the richest places in the world, and is still rich but Turkey is nothing like America and Australia. But look, Turkey is thousands of years old.
Look at America and Australia. Both are only 200 or so years old and when white people came to both of these places they were full of natural resources that had never really been used. All of Europe and Asia had already been mined heavily for metals and had much of its timber and rocks cut. America and Australia were like big free treasure chests. Before WWII all of the money in the world was related to gold. Basically gold was money, even though we had paper money it still represented real gold. That meant that if you found gold that was the same thing as finding money, literally.
So think about America and Australia. These places had never been mined before, and in the 1800s and early 1900s billions and billions of dollars worth of gold was found in these countries. That's like if Turkey were to just find trillions of dollars of money laying around in Turkey today. That would help you economy hugely if the rich people didn't just horde it all for themselves.
People were allowed to have freedom to use this new found money, the rich people didn't just get all of it, they got a lot, but not all of it, so it helped everyone. But seriously, study the history of gold and you see that its a huge factor in how the world has turned out. Basically because America and Australia were new places the people that came here got lots of "free" materials and "free" property and money.
Also look at the Boer War, that is where the British stole the largest gold mine in the world from the South Africans, that's how the British got so damned rich, they stole gold mines, and they sold opium to the people of Asia, and they had the salve trade in the 1700s, etc.
But look at Turkey's history, you know Turkey was making money the hard way from trade for thousands of years and then what happened was that Spain made it to America, and they started stealing the gold from the Natives, and then British stole the gold from Spain and they both started to enslave Africans, and then the Americans revolted and they kept slaves and had one of the largest slavery systems in the history of the world. In the 1800s slaves were about 20% of the population in the South in America. That's a lot of slaves. All those slaves made lots of money for America, that’s how people got rich.
But, lets go to World War I.
Okay, in World War I Turkey sided with Germany because both Germany and Turkey opposed British and French imperialism. Well they didn't oppose it, they just wanted bigger empires themselves. Turkey wanted to expand their power and to get the French and British our of their area. But the war was fought largely in and around Turkey , the Turkish suffered huge losses in WWI. And, not only that, but you guys lost a lot of material wealth too. Both Turkey and Germany got screwed in WWI. It was the fault of the Turkish people of course for getting into the war in the first place, but the fact is that you came out of WWI much worse off than when you went into it, it hurt your country.
But, look at America. America barely even fought in WWI, we came in late and didn't send many troops. But see America is far away from all the fighting. Our country never gets hurt from wars, only Europe Asia and the Middle East gets hurt. That's why after WWI America came out the best because our country never got hurt, but all of Europe, Turkey, and parts of Asia and the Middle East did get hurt, and America made huge profits from the war. America made billions and billions of dollars off WWI by selling weapons and supplies to all sides, the Allied forces and Germany and Turkey too.
So then, after WWII America did great and Europe and Turkey had a horrible time, and they owed a lot of debt. But who was the debt to? It was to America. You see, after WWI European countries had to get huge loans from America at high interest rates to pay for their recovery, so all of Europe was in debt to America after WWI, and that hurt their economies. Actually Germany took on the debt for all of Europe, and that debt was too America. Also American companies price gouged during the war, like they charged very high prices for food and supplies which made it all worse, even though we had plenty.
So, then America had the depression of the 1930s when much of America was in poverty.
Then came World War II and all of that industry brought America out of poverty, but after World War II again the whole rest of the world was devastated but America had been unharmed because we are far away. During World War II America acquired a lot of gold from around the world. And gold was still tied to money at that point. After World War II America had over half of all the gold ever mined in the world. See, that’s how our economy stayed so strong after the war, we had gotten all that gold from the Axis powers, we just took it. We didn't take it all, but we gave some of it back to the places where they had taken it from, but we still kept a lot of it, a whole lot, and that's part of how America got rich, taking Axis gold. Not many people know that, but its really a huge issue. People in America don't like to think that we got rich by stealing Axis gold, but that is the truth. Of course is was a war so I think it was justified anyway, I think we should have taken the gold, but the fact is, we got rich by our government seizing tons and tons and tons of gold.
Then, after WWII you see the American dollar was the only stable currency in the world, because of the chaos of the war, but also because we had all that gold and because of that the US Dollar became the international reserve currency and the OPEC petro-dollar. This obviously has helped the American economy hugely.
Then, after WWII the Cold War started and America used that as an excuse to invade countries all over the world in the name of "fighting communism", but in reality a lot of that had nothing to do with fighting communism it was really just US imperialism. South America and Asia are the two major examples there, Nicaragua, Honduras, Indonesia, etc.
That's how America has become successful, but there has also been a lot of hard work by the citizens who are not involved in any of that stuff too. Its just like everywhere else. Every individual hast their own agenda. While some Americans were helping to build a corrupt empire in South East Asia or South America during the 1960s other at home were doing hard honest work, and its both a part of how America gets wealthy.
But, as for internal markets, that is the key to prosperity because when your own people provide the market for business then the business is loyal to your own people. When a foreign country provides your business then your business if loyal to that foreign country. Look at how much America imports. That means that many businessmen and politicians from around the world are loyal to America because we are the source of their business . America had a plan early on, by Alexander Hamilton, one of our founders, to give incentives to people and to help the poor so that American businesses would have a market in America of people to sell to. As long as your own people are well enough off that the majority of your business is sold to your own people then your businessmen are loyal to their own country. When the majority of what your country makes is exported then your business is loyal to foreigners, and that is never good IMO.
The truth is that counties cannot do today what America did to gain power. Developing countries will have to take a new path. A lot of how America became rich and powerful had to do with simply have a country that had emense natural resources that had never been exploited before. This land would have made anyone rich that had conquered it.
But, democracy is important, even if it is not perfect. Our system is corrupt, but it always has been, but its still not as corrupt as most other places. Getting religion out of politics is a good thing. America was the first modern secualr country with a government that was not related to religion, the separation of church and state, that is important. Education is important and I think that helping the poor is important. What changed America after World War II was that the government really helped average and poor people to do better, and the more people do better then the better everyone does. We had the GI Bill here that meant eveyroen who went to war, when they came back they got a free college education and cheap homes and access to good jobs. And that created a lot of oppertunity for people, but you don't need a war to do that, you can do it without a war, but you need a society where the rich people at the top are not afraid of the poor people taking away their power.
See after the 1930s depression people were ready to help the poor and to help everyone here, even most of the rich people were willing to help. That's what it takes IMO, the rich people have to be willing to help, and once you get things going and once the people start doing better its like a snowball, it just keeps getting bigger and bigger and more and more people do better. We are losing that here in America, now we are starting to go back to the old ways and the poor are getting poorer here again and the rich richer. The key is that the rich people have to be willing to help the poor people and when the people have help they can do so much more with their lives and everyone works together to make the country a better place. In order for that to work your leaders have to be willing to spend money to help the poor, to help education, and to be loyal to your own people above anything else.
At least that's how I see it.
By frontier of American patriotism do you mean that you see many blacks fighting in Iraq on TV? In this country if you join the military the military will pay for you to go to college. Because many blacks are poor in America then many blacks join the military because that is the only way they can afford to go to college.
Overall blacks are not more patriotic in America. I think that patriotism in America is pretty equal among people of all races for some different reasons. Racism and discrimination are almost totally gone in America. It still exists, and its something that Americans recognize, but compared to most other places in the world there is almost no racism here. I think that makes many minorities patriotic here. Blacks in America do still complain a lot about racism, but its on a different level, its not about basic human rights, we all have that here, its about much smaller issues. I think that people of every race in America knows that we are all very well off here compared to the rest of the world so that makes people of all races patriotic.
As for how to fix the problems of the third world, I think that several things have to be done:
People of developed countries have to be educated about how they have really become wealthy and how their countries really impact the world today. In America today we learn nothing in school about how this country has become wealthy. Here we only learn that God has blessed America and our ancestors fought for freedom, we learn a little bit about slavery, but nothing about the economics of slavery. Very few people here understand the impact of having all of the free access to natural resources that we had, and in most schools here they don't even teach 20th century history! They might mention World War One, but nothing much. Most American history in high school and even college deals with the founding of the country and talks about the Declaration of Independence and Constitution, the human rights issues of early slavery, and then the Civil War, and that’s about it.
So, the majority of Americans really don't understand how the country has become rich in the first place, this applies even to many rich people in America. If you ask an average American how this country has become rich they will say something like from hard work and God.
So, because Americans don't understand this many Americans think that people in 3rd world countries are poor because they are lazy or because they are not good Christians. This is crazy of course, but you will find this to be a popular idea in America.
So, after people in developed countries are educated, then people in developed countries will have to decide to help people in undeveloped countries.
I know that does not sound very good, but I think that it will have to happen, and it may never happen, or if it does happen is could take 30 years or 300 years to happen.
Of course international trade and globalization should also help currently poor countries, but ONLY if the people of those countries can make the labor laws work for them. Globalization can be a good thing, but its only good if the elite of your country is willing to make Western companies work in your favor. I think that really all of the 3rd world needs to band together and demand higher wages from international companies. So yes, I think that right now most 3rd world countries are trying to work with the Western powers, but this is the wrong approach. That is a good start, but what you really need to do is form international unions among all 3rd world countries. So with Turkey for example your people should be trying to cooperate and form treaties with Asian countries and India to put pressure on American and Australian and European companies to increase wages and improve working conditions. As that happens then your people will become more wealthy and then there will be a natural shift to more domestic markets.
None of that is an easy thing to do, its easy to say, but I have no idea how to make it happen.
You see developed nations try to keep 3rd world nations weak and separate. And 3rd world countries don't help this either because they fight among themselves. All the 3rd world counties should be joining together just like all the poor people join together to form unions. The poor nations should join together to form unions. Not to fight the West to conquer it, but just to make sure that you have to be treated fairly. The West is not going to do this for the world. People try to maintain power as much as possible, and I think that my goal in America is to help educate people here, but that's not easy and you can't rely on that. For people in the 3rd world the key is to put aside the differences among nations and among ethnic groups and for all poor people of the world to realize that their neighbors are not their enemy, the West is the problem, but not an enemy. Rich people all over the world are the ones that are screwing us all and they are in America or Japan or China or Turkey or South Africa or France, its all the same. The only way to fight that is not with violence though, but to form alliances among the poor to unite together. So Turkey should be forming alliances with Pakistan, India, the Balkan countries, Singapore, Indonesia, Nigeria, China, all that but also just every developing country around the world. And all of these countries have to join together and send a single unified message to the West and Japan that you demand better treatment from Western powers in the form of wages and prices for commodities and things that you sell to Western powers.
The way that the West is able to get its way is because if Turkey will not agree to something then they just go to Pakistan and if they will not agree then they go to Honduras, or Indonesia, or anywhere. Western people can trade with anyone in the world so they have their choice, but you do not. Perhaps Islam is a form of that happening today. I think that perhaps Islam is uniting the people of Africa, the Middle East, and Asia and it may have a good effect in some way, but I don't think that can be the only way. You have to have secular and political unification too, not just religious. The leaders in America keep saying that this war on terror is not about Islam, but Western leaders are afraid of Islam I think because of what I just said. Its a way that the developing world is becoming united, and they don't want that.
Like I said, counties are like individual people. Just like people have to unite to form a union to get fair treatment from employers if the employers are not freely giving fair treatment, countries also have to unite to get fair treatment from other more powerful countries.
So basically I think that all of the 3rd world countries need to start looking at each other more as allies instead of trying to ally with the West. But your politicians aren't going to do that, they are going to ally with the West because that is where they get their money and power. Its not easy, and I really don't know enough about the local politics of 3rd world countries to say what should be done. Like I said, our system is corrupt too, just look at Bush, he's a corrupt lying millionaire, who's father was rich, and his grandfather was rich too. Its all corrupt, and large companies here have a huge influence on our politics too. I just hope that Bush is not elected again in 2004. If he is not then I think you will see America make some big changes and begin to be more responsible and fair with 3rd world countries.
All I know is that its a difficult struggle for all people all over the world. I feel that all people of all races and all nations are more closely related by class than they are by nationality. The poor classes of the world have to struggle together against the elite of the world, and we have to put race and religion and cultural differences aside and see that we are all being oppressed by the same group of wealthy elite. We are all together in the same boat. Probably 99% of Americans do not agree with what I just said, because we are taught here not to think that way, but I think it is true. Everyone is taught to have enemies and that the enemies are people who are of different cultures, but that is not true, that is just how the elite keeps people in chaos so that they can take advantage of the masses I think. So people need to get into the attitude of supporting the struggle of the working people in all countries. If you hear on the news about the plight of workers in South America or in Malaysia or even in Europe and America, if people are striking, you should be in support of that, because its all related. You have to want good things for the workers of every country in order to have good things for your own country I believe. And maybe at first you can do nothing, but I think that just thinking that way is a start. Today I have still done very little to help anyone. All I have done is just write to people and write on the internet and I am active in politics in America, and right now that is all I can do. But that is a start and if I have more opportunity to help others in the future then I will do that, hopefully I can do that.
