My challenge to ID proponents on Hannity.com

JLam

Proud Skepkid Parent
JLam
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The hannity.com forums are full of very lively debate between radical fundies, skeptics, and whackjobs of all stripes.

One of the hot topics over there lately is ID, naturally. I posted a thread over there challenging the fundies to post positive evidence for ID. We'll see what comes of it.

The link is here: http://www.hannity.com/forum/showthread.php?t=45874

Here's the text of my OP there:

So many threads on this subject already, and now another? Yes.

There are many people here posting for and against ID. The main problem the pro-evolution crowd has with the pro-ID crowd is the contention that ID is not science, in that it proposes no testable ideas. At the risk of creating another thread that's going to just go around in circles again, I'd like to ask those who believe in ID to post what they believe is the best EVIDENCE for ID.

Evidence is not criticism. Evidence is not filling in the gaps of understanding with God.

In this thread, you may not say "They need to teach both", because that is not scientific evidence. You may not say "They need to teach the controversy" because that is not scientific evidence. And you may not say "God did it", because that is FAITH, not something based on scientific evidence. Those arguments can take place in the other threads.

So, here's your chance. ID claims to be a science, so post the best scientific evidence you've found that supports ID. Any faith based arguments will be ignored.

And awaaaay we go.

We'll see what happens. I'm certainly not holding my breath.
 
I just had a quick look over there and surprise surprise... No takers so far.

Is that because there is no evidence to support ID? This is a challenge that should be at the heart of ID.

Paraphrasing wotsizname from that move: SHOW ME THE EVIDENCE!
 
I'm going to keep bumping that damn thread until someone posts something. Idiots.
 
As I was looking around there, I found a bunch of posts by someone called Lurch.

The Addams Family will never be the same now.
 
JLam said:
I took him down in this thread. What a bunch of maroons....

http://www.hannity.com/forum/showthread.php?t=45886
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I see the damn Lurch included my favorite faux argument:

Think about how everything has been created in the most minute detail such as:1. The earth is positioned at just the right distance from the sun so that we receive exactly the proper amount of heat to support life. All of the other planets are either too close to the sun (too hot) or else too far (too cold) to sustain life.
2. Any appreciable change in the rate of rotation of the earth would make life impossible. If the earth were to rotate at 1/10th its present rate, all plant life would either be burned to a crisp during the day or frozen at night.
3. Temperature variations are kept within reasonable limits due to the nearly circular orbit of the earth around the sun.
4. The moon revolves around the earth at a distance of about 240,000 miles, causing harmless tides on the earth. If the moon were located 1/5th of this distance away, the continents would be completely submerged twice a day.
5. The earth's atmosphere serves to protect the earth by burning up approximately 20 million meteors each day that enter it at speeds of about 30 miles per second.
6. Two primary components of the earth's atmosphere are nitrogen and oxygen. Without these we would be unable to breathe.
7. Plants were designed to "exhale" oxygen which humans need to live; humans were designed to exhale carbon dioxide which plants need to grow.
8. The earth's magnetic field provides important protection from harmful cosmic radiation.
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Like it was said in another thread, it's like throwing a dart at the wall, drawing a circle around the point of impact, and then fawning how the dart managed to hit that spot exactly. :rolleyes:
 
How miraculous that we should live somewhere habitable.

If I was a mile further up, the fall would kill me. If I was a mile further down, I'd suffocate. Why am I positioned so conveniently at the surface of the Earth? Because the Flying Spaghetti Monster put me there, of course!

Gah!
 
Dr Adequate said:
How miraculous that we should live somewhere habitable.

If I was a mile further up, the fall would kill me. If I was a mile further down, I'd suffocate. Why am I positioned so conveniently at the surface of the Earth? Because the Flying Spaghetti Monster put me there, of course!

Gah!
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or....me.

I am awaiting a refutation of my godhood at the moment.

Today JREF, tomorrow ........
 
As I said it's a metaphysical argument. What's the evidence? Well I would have thought that was obvious. The Universe appears to have been designed. That's the evidence. To claim that physical laws and evolution account for the character of the world simply begs the question as then the question of why physical laws are as they are, or indeed even exist at all, arises.
 
Interesting Ian said:
To claim that physical laws and evolution account for the character of the world simply begs the question as then the question of why physical laws are as they are, or indeed even exist at all, arises.
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Umm, if the physical laws were different or didn't exist, there's a good chance we wouldn't be alive here to debate them. If they were different and could support life, we'd be sitting here still wondering why they are the way they are. It's like wondering why humans live on Earth. We live here because no other planet in our solar system can support life. If Mars could support life and the Earth couldn't, we'd most likely be sitting here saying "blimey, why is it that we live on Mars and not the Earth?"
 
Interesting Ian said:
Where has this been claimed? It's a metaphysical argument not a scientific one.
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If that were the case, and subscribed to broadly by it's proponents, it would just be another woo theory and no one would really care. They are saying that it is science and has an equal footing with evolution, hence the legal contention.

BTY, you would have been a good witness for the plaintiffs.
 
Johnny Pixels said:
Umm, if the physical laws were different or didn't exist, there's a good chance we wouldn't be alive here to debate them.
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And that is a totally unsubstantiated assertion. If physical laws were different or non-existent then by definition what is physically possible is completely up in the air.

If they were different and could support life, we'd be sitting here still wondering why they are the way they are.
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We continually discover that physical laws have an inner beauty and harmony. We continually find that apparently disparate phenomena can be subsumed under overarching theories. We find physical laws very difficult, albeit not impossible to discern, and that's quite interesting in itself. The world might have been very very different and much less interesting and resistant to our control and manipulation. Arguably all this is suggestive of a infinite or underlying consciousness controlling reality. That's the evidence.
 
Interesting Ian said:
As I said it's a metaphysical argument. What's the evidence? Well I would have thought that was obvious. The Universe appears to have been designed. That's the evidence. To claim that physical laws and evolution account for the character of the world simply begs the question as then the question of why physical laws are as they are, or indeed even exist at all, arises.
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If it was designed, then what evidence is there of design, I am afriad "Because I said it is." is a rather weak argument, what leads you to believe that the universe is designed?

The fact that there is seeming order does not eman that there isa design.
 
Interesting Ian said:
And that is a totally unsubstantiated assertion. If physical laws were different or non-existent then by definition what is physically possible is completely up in the air.
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If the laws were merely different, then yes, the physical nature of the universe would be different. Maybe we would have evolved to survive in this universe, maybe not. If the laws did not exist, then there would be no order. With no order there would be no existance.

We continually discover that physical laws have an inner beauty and harmony.
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As humans we find them harmonious and beautiful, but that is highly subjective. They could be described as beautiful, as they work, but this does not prove a designer. The fact that they work allows us to be present to examine them. If they were ugly and unharmonious they would most likely not work and we would not exist to examine them.

The world might have been very very different and much less interesting and resistant to our control and manipulation.
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The world might have been more "interesting", although this too is subjective. I find the world as it is highly fascinating.
 
Interesting Ian said:
We continually discover that physical laws have an inner beauty and harmony. We continually find that apparently disparate phenomena can be subsumed under overarching theories. We find physical laws very difficult, albeit not impossible to discern, and that's quite interesting in itself. The world might have been very very different and much less interesting and resistant to our control and manipulation. Arguably all this is suggestive of a infinite or underlying consciousness controlling reality. That's the evidence.
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IU am sorry Ian but that is a rather weak argument, I know you can do better.

The world is subject to inspection and theory building but how long did it take to come up with the right theories in the right juxtaposition.

Democritus came up with very valid arguments for the atomic theory, that were then totaly ignored by those that followed. Many theories have existed that have been tried suggesting a spiritual and moral basis for the manifesttion of the physical world, they just don't have the efficacy of the current methods.

So I argue back that the world for many years was "resistant to our control and manipulation", it was not until the appropriate cognitive models came together that the world began to have that pliability. It is why Newton is more revered for his material philosophy than his spiritual philosophy.
 
Dr Adequate said:
How miraculous that we should live somewhere habitable.

If I was a mile further up, the fall would kill me. If I was a mile further down, I'd suffocate. Why am I positioned so conveniently at the surface of the Earth? Because the Flying Spaghetti Monster put me there, of course!
Click to expand...

Actually, His Noodliness set the level of ground to the ideal elevation so that we aren't born within dirt or at hazardous heights. ;)

Interesting Ian said:
The Universe appears to have been designed. That's the evidence.
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And what makes the universe appear to be designed, up to the level where it can be considered evidence for the existence of some magical deity?

Interesting Ian said:
To claim that physical laws and evolution account for the character of the world simply begs the question as then the question of why physical laws are as they are, or indeed even exist at all, arises.
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I do not understand this argument at all. If I claim that laws of physics and evolution have molded the Earth to its current form, I must question the existence of the mentioned laws of physics? And questioning why these laws "are as they are"? What's the logic behind that?
 
Ed said:
If that were the case, and subscribed to broadly by it's proponents, it would just be another woo theory and no one would really care. They are saying that it is science and has an equal footing with evolution, hence the legal contention.

BTY, you would have been a good witness for the plaintiffs.
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I have never heard of anyone describing the notion of intelligent design as being a scientific issue. I don't see how this can be argued.
 
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