Must Skepticism Conflict With Spirituality?

[Tsukasa Buddha]

Could my once best friend, Skepticism, be my own worst enemy? It is said that many people in my position have been greatly helped by spirituality.

But dammit it is just so incredibly stupid. Looking at all of the stories from people that are meant to bring spirituality into my life, I cannot stop myself from realizing the fallacious reasoning of these morons. And I have tried!

But do happy delusions exist? Maybe if I just suspended my disbelief and tried being spiritual like everyone else I would be happy. But everything I know tells me that the ignorant bliss is just a myth.

Maybe all of this spiritual crap is just airy talk meant to make people feel better and move on with their lives when they stop to ponder the deeper questions of life. Just sappy drivel devoid of any deeper meaning. Just impressive sounding but intellectually hollow smut of philosophy.

Or have I been driven to the dead world wrought by atheism and science, just as those damned Bible-thumpers have warned will happen to society.

 

[T'ai Chi]

I truly feel sorry for you if you believe that spiritual questions are only sappy drivel devoid of any deeper meaning.

No one is trying to convince you that you need to cherish their spiritual questions, but why do you have a strange need to p*** on other peoples' parades? IN short, what gives you the need to tell people that their own beliefs aren't meaningful to them?

 

[Piggy]

Maybe all of this spiritual crap is just airy talk meant to make people feel better and move on with their lives when they stop to ponder the deeper questions of life. Just sappy drivel devoid of any deeper meaning. Just impressive sounding but intellectually hollow smut of philosophy.

That pretty much sums it up.

I mean seriously, look at this mind-boggling world! Sometimes I get positively ticked off at how little I'll be able to learn about this place -- and how little anyone will know -- during the short time I'm gonna be around.

Reality is amazing enough. Time, space, biology, the mind. Why bother to make up a bunch of moonshine and go chasing after that?

Take the floaties off your arms and throw yourself into the ocean, I say. Hell, you're already there. All you gotta do is clear your mind about that fact.

Forget how you'd like things to be, or what would be nice -- or better said, what you think might be nice -- and hold yourself to one criteria: What's real?

Just ask that one question and you're in for a lifetime of more wonder, energy, and mystery than any spirualist could dream of.

 

[UserGoogol]

I admit I don't quite exactly grasp spirituality, but it seems like most of the useful parts of it can be adequately replaced by the more rational kinds of philosophy, and an aesthetic appreciation of the world.

I'm sure happy delusions exist. But I think that it is, as a general thing, possible to replicate the warm fuzzies of spiritual bullsh1t without actually believing in anything at all. I think (not that I've studied psychology) that beliefs aren't inherently pleasurable in the same way that cake or sex is, and thus that the pleasure of believing in spiritual nonsense can be gained through other means.

(Of course, since the word spiritual is so vaguely defined, I suppose it's quite possible that something "spiritual" could be rational enough that a skeptically minded person could be able to believe in it without too many complaints.)

 

[joobz]

IN short, what gives you the need to tell people that their own beliefs aren't meaningful to them?

That's a fair question, and one that I wrestle with. But that question is always double edged. What gives anyone the right to inflict their beliefs (or lack of beliefs) onto others.

Interestingly, I've seen many more preachers on the streets screaming damnation than atheists screaming ...nothing.

 

[Piggy]

No one is trying to convince you that you need to cherish their spiritual questions, but why do you have a strange need to p*** on other peoples' parades? IN short, what gives you the need to tell people that their own beliefs aren't meaningful to them?

Well, that was defensive.

TB never said anything about going out and being some kind of skeptical missionary.

Of course people's beliefs are meaningful to them.

TB is just asking if they make any sense. If they correspond to anything real.

And of course, spiritualism -- while wonderful metaphor, interesting to study anthropologically and psychologically, and in some cases a useful skillful means if you don't take it literally -- doesn't really correspond to anything real.

So to hell with it. That doesn't mean the entire world is going to give it up. But we each have to come to the points individually where we stop thinking our parents are perfect, stop believing in Santa Claus, accept that our chances of winning the lottery are 14 million to one, and forget about spiritualist philosophical BS.

 

[JoeTheJuggler]

I'm not sure how most people define "spirituality"--though many are careful to keep it distinct from "religion" or "beliefs". I like to think of it from its word origin spirare (to breath). Nothing mystical about that--just being mindful and attentive to reality.

A lot of spiritual traditions (even religions) say one way or another that one of their teachings is acceptance. Whether it's extinction of desires in Buddhism or "thy will be done" in Christianity, the basic idea is to accept things as they are here an now. As long as that sort of acceptance doesn't imply liking things as they are or preclude trying to change things, I see no conflict with this attitude and skepticism. (In fact, I do see plenty of conflict with this attitude and things like intercessory prayer.)

 

[Tsukasa Buddha]

I truly feel sorry for you if you believe that spiritual questions are only sappy drivel devoid of any deeper meaning.

Aw, thanks. I think...

No one is trying to convince you that you need to cherish their spiritual questions, but why do you have a strange need to p*** on other peoples' parades? IN short, what gives you the need to tell people that their own beliefs aren't meaningful to them?

I just wanted to relate my experiences to others on the forum and see what they said. I am not trying to convince you that you are stupid or that your beliefs are inferior to my own. I just want a discussion to help me find my way through life.

 

[knot]

Stop worrying about death, just live.

 

[l0rca]

The answer to this question is obvious.

 

[Complexity]

Not obvious enough, apparently, since I came to a different conclusion.

The answer, of course, depends on what we each mean by 'spirituality'. I've no interest at all in getting into definition wars - I'll simply agree to disagree.

Spirituality, as understood by many, is inconsistent with skepticism.

 

[l0rca]

Spirituality, as understood by many, is inconsistent with skepticism.

True, but spirituality, as understood in lieu of a naturalist perspective, is only the cheerishing of the greatest emotional moments we have. I love the word. I love its connotations. Even though we are physical beings, the physics of our body truely is connected to the cosmos. This connection is a scientific one, but it is one that can be seen passionately. I think it is a word that we as atheists should change to suit ourselves.

 

[JohnChasWebb]

Could my once best friend, Skepticism, be my own worst enemy? It is said that many people in my position have been greatly helped by spirituality.

But dammit it is just so incredibly stupid. Looking at all of the stories from people that are meant to bring spirituality into my life, I cannot stop myself from realizing the fallacious reasoning of these morons. And I have tried!

But do happy delusions exist? Maybe if I just suspended my disbelief and tried being spiritual like everyone else I would be happy. But everything I know tells me that the ignorant bliss is just a myth.

Maybe all of this spiritual crap is just airy talk meant to make people feel better and move on with their lives when they stop to ponder the deeper questions of life. Just sappy drivel devoid of any deeper meaning. Just impressive sounding but intellectually hollow smut of philosophy.

Or have I been driven to the dead world wrought by atheism and science, just as those damned Bible-thumpers have warned will happen to society.

Perhaps the questions to ask are
1) "Is it possible that other dimensions of 'reality' can exist"?.
2) "Is there a difference between 'spirituality' and 'religion'"?

Science has not been able to discover the source of consciousness. Some scientists argue that consciousness is a biological by product but cannot prove it.
The essence of all religion (opinion) seems to be that consciousness has an eternal shelf life that lives on beyond the veil of space/time. One attribute of consciousness is that it can create the illusion that it is the form that it occupies. Navigating through eternity, a creative consciousness can, eventually, wind up in a self created dilemma. Religion, metaphysics and spirituality are three tools that the consciousness can employ to extricate itself from the 'delusion of anmesia' regarding its true nature.
So... is there a white guy sitting on a cloud who cares about you? Probably not. However, are there any secret truths that remain hidden regarding our true nature? There probably are.
The greatest archaeological dig (opinion) is to 'go within' and get under the psychological patterns that make up the human ego. To get deep enough into one's own psyche and to discover 'the source'!
Western bible thumpers, as you have described, are sending you off in the wrong direction. (opinion) Nothing is going on 'out there', up in the sky, etc., etc. The true journey (opinion) of 'spirituality' (metaphysics) is simply going within and peeling away the onion skins of the temporary self. The constantly jabbering mind is the biggest obstruction to self knowledge. Western spirituality (opinion) is little more than a consumer item built around multifarious cults.
IF there are 'other levels and dimensions of reality' then one may ponder, "How did I wind up on death row"?

 

[Big Les]

Spirituality, as understood by many, is inconsistent with skepticism.

True, but spirituality, as understood in lieu of a naturalist perspective, is only the cheerishing of the greatest emotional moments we have. I love the word. I love its connotations. Even though we are physical beings, the physics of our body truely is connected to the cosmos. This connection is a scientific one, but it is one that can be seen passionately. I think it is a word that we as atheists should change to suit ourselves.

I agree, and it's the "Einsteinian religion" that Dawkins keeps confusing people about. I would define it as the sense of being part of something bigger and more significant than yourself. You can have that without conflicting with your scepticism. Beats the compartmentalisation that religious scientists and sceptics have to construct for themselves.

 

[Paul C. Anagnostopoulos]

No one is trying to convince you that you need to cherish their spiritual questions, but why do you have a strange need to p*** on other peoples' parades? IN short, what gives you the need to tell people that their own beliefs aren't meaningful to them?

T'ai, you keep confusing a debate forum with real life. Tsukasa said nothing about having this conversation with all his friends and relations.

~~ Paul

 

[CFLarsen]

I truly feel sorry for you if you believe that spiritual questions are only sappy drivel devoid of any deeper meaning.

No one is trying to convince you that you need to cherish their spiritual questions, but why do you have a strange need to p*** on other peoples' parades? IN short, what gives you the need to tell people that their own beliefs aren't meaningful to them?

Now, that was interesting!

I do believe T'ai Chi actually expressed an opinion of his own!!!

What is really interesting is....why this issue?