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More homeopathy crap

shawmutt

Squirrel Murderer
shawmutt
Joined
Jan 17, 2009
Messages
2,037
A buddy I actually have to see on a regular basis set his homeopathic sights on me as a reply to a hilarious video I linked on Facebook (thanks to the Respectful Insolence blog):



My wife tells me I need to find a kinder gentler way and to try really hard to not scare the real people out of our lives, so no letting loose with the keyboard cowboy for me. Why the **** can't I find skeptic parents to hang out and be friends with? I joined a UU church to find folks like my wife and I, and brought home the wackos.

Anyway, rant aside

His arguments:

Science doesn't know how medicine actually works anymore than homeopathic stuff.
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I would rather get better than perpetuate the sick and grow super bugs that become resistant to an antibiotic.
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Crack open a Physician's Desk Reference and count how many drug descriptions end with a statement about how the mechanism of action is not clear or understood.
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Energy patch cured [his wife's] hypothyroidism.
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And homeopathic stuff is keeping me from getting another surgery.
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I'm in the process of writing back, and would appreciate any advice on delivering a kinder, gentler message. Hell, I should probably learn how to do it for forums too.
 
Science knows what medicines work and which don't. When new information comes along, it gets evaluated. Homeapathy has never been shown to work. Ask him to show you one homeopathic remedy that was pulled off the market or found ineffective.

As for antibiotics, show him this picture (Not Safe for Work) and ask him if he'd rather give the kid antiobitics or some homeopathic remedy.
http://www.mycology.adelaide.edu.au/gallery/photos/basidiobolus01.gif

He's absolutely right that not all mechanisms are understood. Ask him to count how many are. While you're at it tell him that "One illustration of dilutions used in common homeopathic remedies involves comparing a homeopathic dilution to dissolving the therapeutic substance in a swimming pool.[1] One example, inspired by a problem found in a set of popular algebra textbooks, states that there are on the order of 1032 molecules of water in an Olympic-size swimming pool[2] and if such a pool were filled with a 15C homeopathic remedy, to have a 63% chance of consuming at least one molecule of the original substance, one would need to swallow 1% of the volume of such a pool, or roughly 25 metric tons of water." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homeopathic_dilutions

Ask him what mechanism the energy patch used to cure his wife. Remind him that people get better on their own all the time. Ask him to show you the clinical tries that established that this was a reliable method versus other treatments and no treatment at all.

Basically, keep asking him questions. Ask him to offer evidence. His problem is not a lack of information but a lack of critical thinking schools. It's less about homeopathy and more about making informed conclusions.
 
H3LL said:
Well, if the surgery is to prevent a life threatening condition, he's a person you won't "have to see on a regular basis" for too long.
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And it goes some way to explaining the claim that homoeopathy saves the NHS money. Not only will they save the cost of the surgery, but they won't need to pay for long-term care either.
 
I just recently heard about a homeopathic nail polish... apparently the bacteria and fungus despise it... or some such nonsense... I don't have a link, I saw a commercial last night, but it comes in all sorts of purty colors. Since it has nail polish in it, can it really be called homeopathic?
 
"Science doesn't know how medicine actually works anymore than homeopathic stuff.Crack open a Physician's Desk Reference and count how many drug descriptions end with a statement about how the mechanism of action is not clear or understood."

I have put these two together because they are factually incorrect. In fact in the vast majority of drug classes we a have clear understanding of the mechanism of action based upon well understood and verified scientific principles. A few examples:

Penicillin: -- Acts by binding to proteins in bacterial cells walls.
Analgesics - Inhibit prostaglandins
Diuretics - Inhibit cellular pumps in kidney cells membranes.
Steroids - act upon intracellular glucocorticoid receptors

In fact, ask him to do just what he told you. Open a pharmacology textbook, and ask him to name a single drug where we have no idea at all of its mechanism of action. The only things that may come close would be general anaesthetics, and in those cases the fact of their efficacy can hardly be disputed.(and there are quite a few reasonable theories)

In contrast ask him to produce a single suggested mechanism of action of homeopathy that is consistent with what we know to be true about how the world works.
 
Thanks for the responses, they are appreciated. I generally know how to respond, I just want to graduate to the next level and respond without being a jerk.

UncaYimmy said:
As for antibiotics, show him this picture (Not Safe for Work) and ask him if he'd rather give the kid antiobitics or some homeopathic remedy.
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Don't get me started on their kids. Their first developed aspergers, so they refuse to vaccinate their youngest at all. The wife is convinced she has celiac disease without ever being tested for it, and also has her daughter on a gluten-free diet. I've been down that road with them after a bottle of sake (and they had a few drinks too). They are agnostic/atheists, and that's about where the similarities stop.

I've given him the molecule numbers and such, he just falls back on the argument from ignorance.

H3LL said:
Is that kinder and gentler?
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I'm not sure what the surgery is for, but yeah, that's a pretty crappy risk to take--water vs. surgery.

Thanks for the tips Criticalist, I think getting Socratic on his ass is the way to go ;)
 
His argument is almost certainly deeply flawed, Socrates is probably the way to go as you say. You might also try to come up with a homeopathic test protocol of the type we discuss every once in a while. Probably be worth waiting until Socrates has clarified what they think homeopathy actually is first.
 
Dammit, I failed, I was a jerk. I'm just too dumb to be nice :D

He knows what homeopathy is, he just believes in magic. I tried all the arguments about the memory water (e.g. remembering the harmful components and the good, etc.), still no go.

This calls for drastic(lol) measures. What kind of homeopathic sleeping pills did Randi use in his demonstrations? I'll take a whole box the next time they come over.

eta: Calms Forte, or something like that.
 
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Why do you need to engage this guy on this particular topic? It doesn't sound like you will change his mind and he's not going to change yours.

Linda
 
fls said:
Why do you need to engage this guy on this particular topic? It doesn't sound like you will change his mind and he's not going to change yours.

Linda
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For one because he's a real life friend, and friends are hard to come by these days. For two because he responded to my link, and I'm responding to his response. For three I see it as an excellent opportunity to work on my anti-woo delivery--it's easy to be an anonymous dick to anyone who doesn't agree with me online, it's a bit more difficult in real life and I think that's a skill I need to develop. Currently, I'm just planting mustard seeds...

...with a backhoe.
 
blue sock monkey said:
Have you tried showing your friend this link? It had at least a slight effect on one of my woo-devoted pals.

http://www.csicop.org/si/2004-05/belgium.html
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That's so wierd, I was thinking of doing something similar--getting a group together, buying a bunch of the crap CVS sells, and having a ritual suicide in front of the pharmacy.

Thanks for the link, I'm going to email it to him now.
 
Sean84 said:
I just recently heard about a homeopathic nail polish... apparently the bacteria and fungus despise it... or some such nonsense... I don't have a link, I saw a commercial last night, but it comes in all sorts of purty colors. Since it has nail polish in it, can it really be called homeopathic?
Click to expand...

I was thinking something entirely different when I read the words "homeopathic nail polish." I was imagining dabbing water on your fingernails, which would then look red (or pink, or whatever) because the water would remember the color. Later, you could remove it with homeopathic nail polish remover. I want homeopathic makeup; it would save so much time in the morning.
 
SezMe said:
You already have it. It comes out of the tap and you apply it each morning that you wash your face. :)
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That's what I meant. I step out of the shower, and my makeup's already done! Yippee!
 
One strategy would be to try to get him to claim that homeopathy has an effect on people who aren't sick. Loads of homeopaths specifically say that this isn't the case, and therefore testing homeopathy is impossible (which doesn't follow)... at the same time they believe homeopathic provings done at 30C on people in normal health have an effect.

You might try for starters to get him to agree that you could try proving a homeopathic medicine and seeing if there are any effects. Perhaps you could both do a proving. If the proving does work for him try repeating it with half way decent blinding.
 
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