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Missing genetic information refutes neo-Darwinism

wogoga

Critical Thinker
Joined
Apr 16, 2007
Messages
334
It is a fact that the information of the genetic make-up of a human is a far cry from what is needed in order to transform a fertilized egg only into a human body, let alone into a person with intelligence and consciousness.

There are two approaches to this problem:

1) The dogmatic approach either ignores (i.e. psychologically suppresses) the argument or assumes a miraculous (logically impossible) information increase during ontogensis.

2) The logically consistent (i.e. scientific) approach leads to the simple conclusion, that apart from the material information another kind of information must exist.

Nowadays, most personal computers have a primary storage (RAM) of around 1 gigabyte. I don't know what the information of the used parts of the human genome is, but I suppose that this information can be compressed to less than 0.1 gigabyte, or maybe even to less than 0.01 gigabyte.


"The estimated number of genes in the human genome has been repeatedly revised downward since the completion of the Human Genome Project; current estimates place the human genome at just under 3 billion base pairs and about 20,000–25,000 genes. A recent Science article gives a final number of 20,488, with perhaps 100 more yet to be discovered." (Wiki)

"Broadly, the science of functional genomics has developed widely accepted techniques to characterize protein-coding genes, RNA genes, and regulatory regions. In the genomes of most plants and animals, however, these together constitute only a small percentage of genomic DNA (less than 2% in the case of humans). The function, if any, of the remainder remains under investigation. Most of it can be identified as repetitive elements that have no known biological function for their host (although they are useful to geneticists for analyzing lineage and phylogeny). Still, a large amount of sequence in these genomes falls under no existing classification other than 'junk'." (Wiki)

"Nuclear genome sizes are well known to vary enormously among eukaryotic species. In animals they range more than 3,300-fold, and in land plants they differ by a factor of about 1,000." (Wiki)

"In order to store the entire human genome on a computer without compression would require around 3,000,000,000 / 4 = 750,000,000 bytes of storage or 750 megabytes. The human genome requires 750 megabytes of storage compared to 1,500 megabytes of storage for Windows XP. Microsoft’s latest operating system requires twice the storage space than the genetic blueprint of the human species. This does not imply that Windows XP is more advanced or complex than the human genome, in fact, there is little correlation between the complexity of an organism and the length of its DNA sequence. A simple creature known as amoeba dubia has a genome that is over 200 times larger than the human genome." ('Man vs. Windows XP', tmsoft.com)

The belief that, despite all evidence to the contrary, (mostly repetitive) junk DNA represents information concerning the human body, instinctive behaviour, intelligence and consciousness is comparable to the belief in logically impossible miracles. Thus the concept 'functional DNA' ("less than 2% in the case of humans") is the relevant genetic information of a human. Even without compression it turns out to be less than 15 megabyte (i.e. less than one percent of Windows XP). This is less than 1 kilobyte per gene.

Maybe even more than in the case of software, there is a lot of evidence of inefficient use of this genetic information. Yet there is not even the slightest hint of how additional information concerning a human being could arise out of these 20,000 genes during ontogenesis.

If it is true that out of these 20,000 genes "we probably make at least 10 times that number of different proteins", then the genetic information per protein reduces to less than 100 bytes. One can dispute whether 100 or 1,000 bytes are enough to determine folding and behaviour of proteins, but we can be sure that this information is not enough to describe in a halfway complete way a protein capable of carrying out several tasks.

"For an enzyme to develop in a cell, various specific tasks (e.g. the complex transcription initiation) have to be carried out. If every task required a specific enzyme type, every enzyme type would require several other types, something that is logically impossible. One concludes that many enzymes are able to carry out several tasks. This hardly can be explained by reductionist causal laws, as even one task depends on various conditions, such as e.g. 'allosteric' changes in the enzyme form." ('The Psychon Theory', 'Arguments against Reductionism')

So if we cannot even be sure that there is enough genetic information in order to determine all the proteins working in our body, then it becomes (sorry for the expression) completely absurd to assume that there is enough genetic information for the human body with all its anatomical features, let alone for human intelligence and consciousness.

Therefore, neo-Darwinism is refuted inasfar as it excludes non-material information. There remain however at least these three logically viable hypotheses:

1) The missing information comes from God
2) The missing information comes from morphic fields (Rupert Sheldrake)
3) The missing information comes from psychons (the 'units' of evolution)

The psychon hypothesis leads to the most and the most precise predictions (e.g. demographic saturation).

Cheers, Wolfgang
 
What about the fact that gene expression will have extremely different large-scale results depending on the environment the genes are situated in? The fact that a fertilized human egg grows into a human shape within the womb of a human mother (or an environment almost identical to it) is a necessary part of the process, as is the nutrition transferred to the growing fetus through the umbilical cord.

Also, how precisely does one measure how much information is "necessary to transform a fertilized egg into a human body"?
 
Without reading anything in the other thread, I'm sure I can summarize:

Person with little to no understanding of developmental biology can't understand how our current understanding of biology can explain evolution or development.

Am I right?

Too bad PZ Myers doesn't have time to participate in this forum. Wogoga, why don't you try discussing this with someone who is an expert in developmental biology, over on http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/.

-David
 
Without reading anything in the other thread, I'm sure I can summarize:

Person with little to no understanding of developmental biology can't understand how our current understanding of biology can explain evolution or development.

Am I right?

You are pretty much spot on. His entire genetic argument is basically one big argument from ignorance.
 
Wogoga said:
It is a fact that the information of the genetic make-up of a human is a far cry from what is needed in order to transform a fertilized egg only into a human body, let alone into a person with intelligence and consciousness.
Ah yes, argument from it is a fact that.

Therefore, neo-Darwinism is refuted inasfar as it excludes non-material information. There remain however at least these three logically viable hypotheses:

1) The missing information comes from God
2) The missing information comes from morphic fields (Rupert Sheldrake)
3) The missing information comes from psychons (the 'units' of evolution)
You forgot:

4) This missing information is in your brain.

~~ Paul
 
English alphabet, 26 letters.
English dictionary, 100,000 words.
English literature, more than a few books.

How is this possible?:confused:
 
It is a fact that the information of the genetic make-up of a human is a far cry from what is needed in order to transform a fertilized egg only into a human body, let alone into a person with intelligence and consciousness/
You say that this is a fact.

Who found out that this fact is true?

What evidence did they supply for the truth of this fact?

How did they calculate how much genetic material is necessary for human development?

Why haven't I ever heard of this superlative genius?
 
English alphabet, 26 letters.
English dictionary, 100,000 words.
English literature, more than a few books.

How is this possible?:confused:

Neo-Shakespearean deceit.

IDiot PWND.

Way to go, you two. Jointly nominated - you might have to share the $20.

:bigclap

(You guys should team up more often, that's just like one of those classic moments when you're laughing as hard as you can, THEN Groucho turns up. Made my morning, that has. Won't stop him, though - carry on.)
 
So if we cannot even be sure that there is enough genetic information in order to determine all the proteins working in our body, then it becomes (sorry for the expression) completely absurd to assume that there is enough genetic information for the human body with all its anatomical features, let alone for human intelligence and consciousness.
Obviously true, but this is only criticism against the supersimplistic ultra-gene based analogy that the genome can be seen as a "computerprogram" describing how to build an organism. Even Richard Dawkins -- champion of the gene centered view of evolution -- does not believe in such a thing. In the BBC documentary 'The Blind Watchmaker' (after 25 mins) he explicitely mentions that idea that the genome is a detailed description of all the intricacies of an organism is misleading, and a better analogy is that of a recipe.

If you think that the genome is supposed to describe an organism in all its intricacies, then there obviously isn't enough information in the genome to do that. But no one knowledgeable in this area claims that it does. That of course leaves open the issue of how the organism is formed in such a way that it resembles its parent. I think it is a problem for neo-Darwinism, but I don't think it is as large a problem as you think it is. If this information doesn't come directly from the genes, perhaps the information is provided by the environment in which the organism develops. The womb for example could be an environment in which only a limited number of developmental paths are possible, and may provide environmental stimuli to steer development in particular directions.
 
Does this mean that plants and such, who have lots and lots of genes, but don't have brains, have to have these genes because God doesn't GAF about their development?
 
English alphabet, 26 letters.
English dictionary, 100,000 words.
English literature, more than a few books.
Your analogy would be valid if you argued that all English texts consisted of 20 000 words, and that the few percent that differ between texts were enough to account for all possible variation in English.
 
plus to claim that all the information in the genome can be stored in x MB uncompressed is flawed, in that that's only true once one has restricted the possibilities to ATGC... To store all the information even about the structure of those bases would take a lot more than 2 bits per base pair, so your xMB description of the genome is *hugely* compressed right there.

If you want to continue with the computer analogy, it's more like saying ~/.bashrc is only 2kB in size, and that's not nearly enough to define how my computer works, so clearly god must intervene every time I log in, while completely overlooking the information coded in the kernel, in /bin, in /usr, and everywhere else.
 
Earthborn said:
Your analogy would be valid if you argued that all English texts consisted of 20 000 words, and that the few percent that differ between texts were enough to account for all possible variation in English.
I don't believe that the exact numbers have to match for the analogy to be valuable. Soapy was making a comment about combinatorics, I think.

If you think that the genome is supposed to describe an organism in all its intricacies, then there obviously isn't enough information in the genome to do that.
Why do you say so? And if so, why are there enough letters in the English alphabet to compose all the books?

~~ Paul
 
Actually, just to point directly at the hear to fhte matter, we also have (IIRC) fewer genes than corn.

However, what is important is the number of protiens that can be coded. Evidence suggests that many areas of the DNA strand can code for multiple protiens, depending on the actions of various RNA bits. Several groupings on the genes can signal for things like "skip from here to there", "invert this section", and similar functions, in response to other changes in the cell. SciAm had an article on this about two years ago, IIRC...maybe 3. If anyone is interested I'll try to find the reference (I no longer have my digital subscription so it's harder to search).
 
Your analogy would be valid if you argued that all English texts consisted of 20 000 words, and that the few percent that differ between texts were enough to account for all possible variation in English.

There cannot be an exact analogy because of the phenomena of alternative splicing and the interaction of timing in gene product expression. Bone morphogenic protein in one setting produces vastly different effects from what it does in a slightly different setting just a few days later in neural development.

Twenty to thirty thousand genes produce hundreds of thousands gene products.
 
Your analogy would be valid if you argued that all English texts consisted of 20 000 words, and that the few percent that differ between texts were enough to account for all possible variation in English.

That's closer to being true than most people realize. Almost all English texts do consist of the same 20,000 or fewer words. The difference between Bleak House and The Hound of the Baskervilles is not the vocabulary, but in the arrangement.
 

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