Mineta, the final solution

[MG1962]

A lot has been made of an apparent conflict in testimony and other elements of evidence presented to the 911 Commision.

Mr Mineta overheard a conversation involving an unidentified young man and vice president Cheney. This conversation could not take place until at least 9.55, When VP Cheney hung up from President Bush as his plane prepared for take off from Florida.

Great debate has raged over this discussion. What was 50 miles from where. Flight 77 has already impacted. Flight 93 was never close enough to any specific geographic location that could be used as a marker.

Could VP Cheney be seeking information and clarification of Delta Flight 1989. The plane was listed as a potential hijacking at 9.27 and Boston Control requested a military intercept and identification at 9.41.

So if Mr Mineta arrives at the POEC 9.50 rather than 9.20. He witnesses the conversation with the young man begin after the VP has finished with the President at 9.56. Arriving at 9.50 also fits Mr Mineta's testimony of people rushing out of the White House. An event we know began around 9.36. I believe it is safe to say Mr Mineta arrived at the White House around 9.40. Paused for a momment to speak to Mr Clarke in the situation room before moving down the the POEC

Mr Mineta witnesses VP Cheney wrestling with the choice of shooting Delta 1989 down before it reaches Cleveland, or wait and see what happens. Fortunately as subsequent events proved, he made the right choice, hence avoiding greater loss of life on that terrible day.

In the vast expanse of information that day, I believe the events of Flight 1989 would be submerged and forgoten by the major figures in light of the fate of the crews and passengers of the other four aircraft

 

[ref]

We will never know for certain, which plane was the one discussed. Unless we identify the young aide, or we hear it straight from Cheney. And that is close to impossible. But truthers can't prove which plane was discussed either. They just jump into conclusions that fit their theories, as always.

 

[gumboot]

Could VP Cheney be seeking information and clarification of Delta Flight 1989. The plane was listed as a potential hijacking at 9.27 and Boston Control requested a military intercept and identification at 9.41.

It's another possibility. However Delta 1989 was being tracked via its transponder at all times, and was diverted to Cleveland Hopkins International Airport - far from Washington DC. Also, communication with Delta 89's pilot was never lost. There was never a report of terrorists taking control of the aircraft, and it was diverted merely as a precaution because of suspicions there was a bomb on board (due to being briefly confused with UA93). Also Delta 1989 did not land at Cleveland Hopkins International until 1045, so any sort of "50 miles out" conversation would have occured around 1030.

Other accounts of the conversation in question indicate the aide was relaying requests for confirmation of a shoot-down order from the Pilots. This is important, because NORAD pilots were never given a shoot down order - even after it had been issued by the President. It was decided by NEADS that issuing a blanket shootdown order to pilots was a bad idea - instead any shootdown order would only be issued on a case-by-case basis following a successful intercept. As we know NORAD aircraft never intercepted any flights, thus the shootdown order was irrelevant.

I propose the pilots in question were those scrambled directly by the USSS - pilots from the 121st Fighter Squadron based at Andrews AFB. They were not part of NORAD, were not on alert, and their aircraft were not armed. However the USSS gave them permission to use force to prevent an airliner hitting any more targets, and the pilots discussed ramming the airliner with their jets.

What's important here is these fighters were entirely outside the loop. They were not in communication with the FAA, ATC, nor NORAD. They were an independent action between their squadron and the USSS itself. (The USSS has the authority to commandeer DoD units in order to protect elements of the US Government including the Legislature and Executive)

I propose that Tigerwall was tracking a projected flight path of UA93 for the USSS. The USSS were then relaying this information to the 121st FS pilots. As the "airliner" drew closer the pilots - contemplating not only the killing of many fellow citizens, but also in all probability their own deaths - kept rechecking the previous USSS directive to use lethal force.

I propose that the VP was not part of this loop at all. The order was not his order, not the Presidents. I propose that one of his aides was merely relaying accounts of the communications to the VP to inform him of what was going on. This is all speculation, of course, but it provides yet another alternative interpretation of the events that doesn't require anyone to be involved in a conspiracy.

I believe it is safe to say Mr Mineta arrived at the White House around 9.40. Paused for a momment to speak to Mr Clarke in the situation room before moving down the the POEC

Clarke's timeline is another thing that bugs me. There's a lot of inconsistancies in it. Also, consider, for the entire duration of the day Clarke was in the Situation Room that was in another bunker at the opposite end of the White House to the POEC. Yet truthers expect us to accept without question his account of what was happening in the POEC. That, to me, seems ludicrous.

-Gumboot

 

[Gravy]

Whatever planes they were tracking and reporting to the White House, there are many, many corroborating reports that these events took place after the Pentagon attack. Here's a statement by a Pentagon rescuer, well after the attack:

So they said a second plane is coming. You’re looking above your head, you can’t see nothing. Then somebody on the radio said, “Oh, my god, it’s ten minutes out,” or “It’s ten miles out.” “It’s five minutes out.” “It’s five miles out.” So, we were thinking, ‘oh, God, we’ve got to get these people out of here.’ – Technical Sergeant Vernon Jones, USAF

 

[gumboot]

Whatever planes they were tracking and reporting to the White House, there are many, many corroborating reports that these events took place after the Pentagon attack. Here's a statement by a Pentagon rescuer, well after the attack:

Interestingly enough, The Washington Post has TWO radar tracking accounts. It says Mineta was receiving radar tracks on AA77 from the FAA in the final moments of its flight - new reports every 7 seconds.

It also claims that an aide was asking the VP for confirmation of a shootdown of UA93 later in the day, giving "80 miles out, 60 miles out" reports, until the VP angrily said the order still stood.

Hence the fear that UA93 had been shot down (it took 2 hours before it was confirmed that UA93 had NOT been shot down).

Could it be Mineta, being a very old man, and talking nearly 2 years after the attacks, simply merged this two reports together and placed them at the same time - that of the earlier report?

The funny thing about Mineta's testimony is, as you look into it further you discover more and more perfectly ordinary possible explanations for the discrepencies.

-Gumboot

 

[MG1962]

It's another possibility. However Delta 1989 was being tracked via its transponder at all times, and was diverted to Cleveland Hopkins International Airport - far from Washington DC. Also, communication with Delta 89's pilot was never lost. There was never a report of terrorists taking control of the aircraft, and it was diverted merely as a precaution because of suspicions there was a bomb on board (due to being briefly confused with UA93). Also Delta 1989 did not land at Cleveland Hopkins International until 1045, so any sort of "50 miles out" conversation would have occured around 1030.

Well my understanding is that the plane was listed as suspect because it didn't answer Boston control, mainly because it had already switched to Cleveland.

When I was looking for information, the indication I found was the FAA logged the plane as landed around 10.10, though one witness statement (real or not) suggested it may have been closer to 10.00am

The funny thing about Mineta's testimony is, as you look into it further you discover more and more perfectly ordinary possible explanations for the discrepencies.

I totally agree. But for some reason the CT people have made so much of this incident it really gets tiresome. I also think Clarke has a part to play, because it is his book that has stired a bit of this up, and some of his actions post 911 can really only be described as s disturbing. Mineta is an interesting character as he has never pushed or defended these inaccuracies Being virtually the only Democrat in a Repulblican administration perhaps had more to gain than anyone by whistle blowing. Obviously his actions after the enquiry prove that he wasn't prepared to fall on his political sword over it, and that night be reason for us to see the conflict in his testimony as the minor issue it should be

 

[boloboffin]

Clarke was a holdover from the Clinton adminstration.

After looking back at his book and trying to fold it into the 911CR account, I'm beginning to think that Clarke can't be relied upon too much for sequencing of events. For instance, he says that Myers confirmed trying to get a CAP over Washington at 9:28 from the Pentagon. Myers was involved in the logistics of a meeting with Max Cleland at the time.

Clarke also says that he talked to Garvey from the FAA before 9:28. The logs of the day say that the FAA didn't join his conference call until 9:40.

He also has Mineta calling in from his car after the Garvey conversation (when isn't clear). Clarke tells him first to come to the Situation Room, but after hearing about Mineta's sons (two were commercial pilots), he tells Mineta to go to the PEOC. Clarke says that the sons were with United, but an article a few months later has them working for different companies. And Mineta says that he went to the Situation Room first and then was sent to the PEOC.

I don't think anything sinister is going on here "the day of" - I think people are doing the best they can to remember a monster of a hectic, stressful day. That is why logs are kept in emergency situations. Clarke's account may only be good for details of events, and sometimes we can even have questions about that.

Anyway, Mineta: There's an account of this "callout" situation in the 911CR. It was about 93, the report says that the FAA may have been tracking the plane on a system that showed projected paths and not actual returns, and a second plane (actually helicopter) was soon reported being 5 to 10 miles out. This second event was around 10:30, soon after the 80-60 callouts.

I think Mineta conflated these two events into one. The 10:30 time puts it close to an hour after 77, which fits the idea of Mineta being off by an hour. Cheney confirms the shootdown order on the 80 callout, and again on the 5-10 callout. Being about a second plane, the question by the aide ("Do the orders still stand?") make a hell of a lot of sense.

Especially when you consider that the Vice President, the President, and the National Security Adviser are all lying about a certain situation during this time period. The 911CR doesn't call them on it, but it provides their stories and the evidence that does not corroborate them and instead corroborates a different situation unfolding. That is - the Vice President, without clear authority to do so, ordered planes approaching Washington to be shot down. A call to the President is manufactured in order to justify this - but there is no call in the logs, and testimony from other people (like Josh Bolton) confirms that this authorization call was made later (when the logs confirm a call has been made).

In other words, Cheney pulled a Haig, and a lot of people were uneasy about it at the time. And finally, Bush, Cheney, and Rice cooked up the prior phone call between them to CCA.

I don't understand why they would lie like this. Somebody had to make that order. Cheney did it. I would have taken the heat for that decision, under the described circumstances. Who would have blamed him?

 

[gumboot]

Well my understanding is that the plane was listed as suspect because it didn't answer Boston control, mainly because it had already switched to Cleveland.

Delta 1989 got dragged into it purely because they were in very close proximity to UA93, with exactly the same flight profile. The pilots got jumpy after some discrepencies on the log - two middle eastern passengers logged on the flight, only one actually on board, and he kept using his cellphone even when told not to. Meanwhile a random transmission came out about a bomb. It was from UA93, but for a short moment it was thought it came from Delta. That moment was long enough to put some doubt in the ARTCC's minds, and they weren't about to take chances, so they diverted the flight.

Delta 1989 were always in contact with ARTCC. The problem was Boston ARTCC were the only ones talking directly to NEADS, and Boston weren't handling all of the flights.

When I was looking for information, the indication I found was the FAA logged the plane as landed around 10.10, though one witness statement (real or not) suggested it may have been closer to 10.00am

That could be. My time is based on local media who reported that it landed at 10:45.

-Gumboot

 

[gumboot]

Anyway, Mineta: There's an account of this "callout" situation in the 911CR. It was about 93, the report says that the FAA may have been tracking the plane on a system that showed projected paths and not actual returns, and a second plane (actually helicopter) was soon reported being 5 to 10 miles out. This second event was around 10:30, soon after the 80-60 callouts.

I think Mineta conflated these two events into one. The 10:30 time puts it close to an hour after 77, which fits the idea of Mineta being off by an hour. Cheney confirms the shootdown order on the 80 callout, and again on the 5-10 callout. Being about a second plane, the question by the aide ("Do the orders still stand?") make a hell of a lot of sense.

I think someone like this is the most likely. One of the things to bear in mind is all the times are given in relation to other events. CTers are assuming that the POEC knew about AA77 the moment it crashed, and the same for UA93.

Yet we know initial media reports were that there had been an explosion at The Pentagon, or a helicopter had crashed, or it was a truck bomb.

It seems plausible that AA77 crashed while Mineta was travelling to the White House but he didn't find out an aircraft had hit The Pentagon until some time later.

Bear in mind, when Mineta left his office, he only knew about three things - something hit WTC1 (possibly a small airliner?) the FAA had a hijacked flight, and another airliner had hit WTC2. One would expect him to assume the second aircraft that hit the WTC was the hijacking the FAA were dealing with. So in fact he knew about two incidents.

By the time AA77 hit The Pentagon, NEADS were dealing with seven incidents.

There's no reason to assume Mineta knew about any of these.

Consider. Mineta heads for the White House. While he's on his way AA77 hits The Pentagon. He arrives at the WH, and it's being evacuated because AA77 hit. Mineta arrives in the POEC where they're dealing with utter chaos - multiple hijackings, bomb threats, New York, Washington, reports of fires, truck bombs, across the country. Bush is out of contact, Myers is out of contact, Rice is out of contact, Powell is out of contact. It's truely chaos. The executive are scattered all over the place. No one knows what's going on.

Some time during this a report comes in eye witnesses are saying the event at The Pentagon was another airliner. This is the first time Mineta hears anything about something at The Pentagon. He assumes it just happened. He doesn't realise it actually happened a good 40 minutes ago.

Two years later he's trying to form a timeline of what he did that day. One thing he remembers distinctly is being in the POEC when reports of an airliner hitting the Pentagon arrived. He knows now that AA77 hit at 0937. He works backwards from there.

One thing that all of the recordings from 9/11 - from the FAA, from ARTCC, from NEADS - all show is that the information lag INCREASED as time went on. These departments were directly and immediately involved in what was happening. It only makes sense that those not directly involved (such as those in the POEC) were even FURTHER behind the 8 ball.

-Gumboot

 

[MG1962]

One thing that all of the recordings from 9/11 - from the FAA, from ARTCC, from NEADS - all show is that the information lag INCREASED as time went on. These departments were directly and immediately involved in what was happening. It only makes sense that those not directly involved (such as those in the POEC) were even FURTHER behind the 8 ball.

That was something pointed out by the Commision. The cronic lack of commuication lines into the POEC. It is scary to think that the entire mornings horrific events occured in less that 2 hours.

And in that two hours the US executive branch military and civil elements were rewriting the book on responses and crisis management as they went.

Maybe in a James Bond film 120 minutes are more than enough for these supermen and women to ply their trade. But this was the US on an ordinary Tuesday morning in Sept, and James Bond was nary to be found

 

[gumboot]

That was something pointed out by the Commision. The cronic lack of commuication lines into the POEC. It is scary to think that the entire mornings horrific events occured in less that 2 hours.

Apparantly it took several hours to get the audio working on the TV they had in the POEC...

Consider, it probably hadn't been used in...well... ever.

-Gumboot