Mindless “religious” hatred rears its ugly head again

[Darat]

80 police injured, bomb blasts and why because one group of Christians parade whilst another group of Christians want to stop them…

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/4677401.stm

…snip…

Officers were attacked with petrol and blast bombs as they withdrew from the Ardoyne shops area after the return leg of an Orange Order parade to Ligoniel.

BBC NI Security Editor Brian Rowan said an informed source told him dissident republicans linked to the Continuity IRA were behind the blast bomb attacks.

…snip…

Personally although there is a religious aspect to this I see that along with the “nationalistic” aspect as no more then an excuse for violence.

 

[richardm]

Personally although there is a religious aspect to this I see that along with the “nationalistic” aspect as no more then an excuse for violence.

There's such a long history of animosity that it seems to have become a habit as much as anything else. I find it very strange.

 

[Matabiri]

Frank Dobson said in a very patronising newspaper article a while ago that incitement to religious hatred was outlawed in Northern Ireland some time ago.

Glad to see that law is working well - surely it should make these marchs illegal?

 

[davefoc]

Seven years ago my family and I were in Ireland on vacation. The violence in Northern Ireland had subsided substantially. There were articles about a resurgence in Northern Ireland tourism and a general resurgence in the Northern Ireland economy.

Two young girls had just been killed in an explosion for which the cause of wasn't exactly clear. There was widespread coverage of the incident and there was widespread mourning in the Northern Ireland Catholic community over the incident.

So were the protestant drum bangers moved to curtail their parades that year out of respect for the families of the young girls or out of a desire to not do anything to get in the way of the peace and prosperity that seemed right around the corner?

Absolutely not, what was most important to these people was to march through the Catholic communities banging their drums to celebrate some ancient victory. The government tried to disuade them from their parade route and finally a compromise was reached. For this year only a single individual would march through the Catholic neighborhoods a week after the main marching had taken place.

As a non-religious outsider, I was just amazed that for some of these people the marching and drum banging was more important than the peace and prosperity that seemed to be within grasp if the protestants and Catholics could just figure out how to get along.

 

[Mephisto]

It seems we can always count on religion to provide the line between two ethnically, racially and culturally similar groups.

Seems a bit odd to kill each other over the idea of what happens to you after you die, or why your church has more statues than someone else's.

Men . . . can't live with them, can't obliterate them from the planet, although we try!

 

[Rolfe]

While I certainly take Darat's point, we do have to remember that the "Protestant/Catholic" labels here are essentially ethnic (as he has indeed indicated). Nobody is fighting to force the other group to believe in transubstantiation or reject the authority of the Pope.

Ulster was deliberately colonised by people of British origin (as it happens, Protestant, mainly Scottish) in order to forward the annexation of the island of Ireland. That's what "plantation" means. You plant your own people in a territory so that you can claim ownership of the territory.

400 years later the fight continues, made worse by the fact that the original plantation population's descendants have now been there for so many generations that they see the place as much legitimately theirs as the Catholic Irish.

Territorial disputes where both sides sincerely believe that they have a right to a piece of real estate have a horrible tendency to be insoluble, and to carry on from generation to generation. And it often happens that the defining labels for the different ethnic groups are religious ones. Look at Israel. And Bosnia.

Sometimes people will even appropriate religious themes for their essentially territorial posturing - such as the offensive "F--- the Pope!" graffiti seen around the west of Scotland (where the same thing happens, there due to ethnic resentment between native Scots and the Irish refugees from the potato famine who were seen as taking work away from the already hard-pressed locals).

But this is not a religious fight, it's a territorial and ethnic fight.

Rolfe.

 

[Jon_in_london]

If I hadnt been there recently, and if I hadnt seen how beautiful it is and how nice most of the people are I would simply suggest digging a ditch around NI and towing it out into the arctic sea.

By the way it really is beautiful and the vast majority of the people are really friendly! Go there if you can!!

 

[Luke T.]

If I hadnt been there recently, and if I hadnt seen how beautiful it is and how nice most of the people are I would simply suggest digging a ditch around NI and towing it out into the arctic sea.

By the way it really is beautiful and the vast majority of the people are really friendly! Go there if you can!!

I've been to Cork, and found the people in the southern part of Ireland are also really friendly. Incredibly so.

I have a great sea story about Cork. Worth the read, I think.

[sea story]
Our ship was named after the U.S. Navy's first Commodore, John Barry. John Barry came from and is buried in Ireland near Cork. So when our ship made a port call there, the whole town turned out.

It had rained for about 180 days straight before we got there, and as our ship pulled into the most beautiful harbor I have ever seen in my life, the sun broke through and a shaft of light beamed down directly onto our ship. Everyone ashore took this as a sign from God, and it made a beautiful photo.

The people were lined along all the streets and hills looking down at our ship, they were. Words cannot convey just how beautiful a piece of real estate it is there. The only thing missing was somebody playing Amazing Grace. I woulda burst into tears if I heard it at that moment, salty sea dog or not.

Anyways, we pull in and moor.

Now, our ship was fairly new. We had been commissioned in late '92 and this was mid '94. We had just come from England to help celebrate the 50th anniversay of D-Day, which was really something.

So we pull in, and there's three lasses holding up some kind of protest banner right on the pier but off to the side. I forget what it said exactly. Something about blood and The People or somesuch probably.

Three of our youngest crewmen walk down the pier to these protestors and say, "Hey! You are our first protestors! Can we have our picture taken with you?" And the ladies are like, "Sure!!" And a good time was had by all.

That's how freaking friendly Ireland is.

The cab driver who drove us into town cried like a baby when he asked us how long we were away from home and we told him six months.

The little boys of the town raided our ship. Turning knobs, pulling levers, showing up in the Chief Petty Officers' head while some of us were in there taking showers. We festooned them with USS Barry ballcaps and belt buckles. They made out like bandits.

At a local bar, I mentioned to the local chemist (pharmacist) beside me that I was collecting coins from each country I visited for my 3 kids. I had my son and two stepkids at the time. At some point he wandered out of the bar. The bartender said he was prone to do that 3 or 4 times a day, but he always came back.

And came back he did. With a plastic cup filled with coins no longer in circulation. He gave them to me for my kids.

[/sea story]

I f**king love Ireland.

Don't even get me started on the women. Whoooooo! Talk about friendly!!!

 

[CFLarsen]

Don't even get me started on the women. Whoooooo! Talk about friendly!!!

Do you honestly think you will just walk away from that one?

Details!

 

[Mark]

Link to an absolutely awesome article by Spider Robinson entitled, "You just can't kill for Jesus/Allah/Jahweh/Rama/Elvis..."

A few years ago we finally persuaded psychiatrists to remove homosexuality from the list of recognized mental disorders. Maybe it's time we started lobbying them to add belief in God to the list. Belief in an angry, intolerant one, anyway.

http://www.spiderrobinson.com/jesus.htm

 

[WildCat]

But this is not a religious fight, it's a territorial and ethnic fight.

I don't think it's even much about that any more. The factions in NI have devolved into mafia-style gangs who make money from drugs, vice, and protection rackets. The whole peace agreement was simply a means to get away from the nationalistic and political focus of the earlier violence. There's no money in that, you see, and it also attracts much more attention from the police and military. The marching season is one of the last relics of the old era, probably a method to recruit new gang members as anything else. And it's so entrenched, it's hard to see a way out of it.

 

[davefoc]

Well my sea story is not as interesting as Luke T's and its not exactly a sea story since there is no obvious connection to the sea but I wanted to share it anyway because my impression of Ireland was so similar to Luke T's. The Irish are the most friendly and gracious people that I have ever met.

Anyway we were searching for a place to stay one evening and had followed a sign to country bed and breakfast inn. It turned out to be a bit of a decrepit looking place which we were in the process of deciding against when a very nice fellow showed up and made a pitch for the place. Based on his recommendation we decided to stay there. That evening he and his girl friend came by and we talked and drank well into the night and in general had a very pleasant evening with them and some other guests in the bed and breakfast. It turns out that he was the largest selling Gaelic author in the world and in general quite an interesting fellow.

The next evening we had moved on to the next town when we saw he and his girl friend having dinner at the same restaurant we were going to have dinner at. He invited us over to have dinner with us and bought us all what remains to this day just about the best steak dinner I have ever had.

A little side note: The town we had dinner at was Lisdoonvarna which is the Irish town famous for their match making festival and the town that the movie Matchmaker with Jeanine Garafolo takes place in.