Military don't ask, don't tell policy.

[Ranb]

I was reading CNN on the web and came across this story.

http://www.cnn.com/2004/US/West/06/21/military.gays.ap/index.html

It was the standard stuff I had read before until I got near the bottom and read this;

Elaine Donnelly of the Center for Military Readiness, a conservative advocacy group that opposes gays serving in the military, said the loss of gays and lesbians serving in specialized areas is irrelevant because they never should have been in those jobs in the first place.

"We need to defend the law, and the law says that homosexuality is incompatible with military service," Donnelly said. "There is no shortage of people in the military, and we do not need people who identify themselves as homosexual."



At first I thought the statment was just homopobic, but then I realized it was just stupid. No one serving in a specialized area is irrelevant, and there are shortages of certain specialties in the military.

As a retired sub force petty officer, I could have cared less if gays were on board. I did run into a few who decided not to rock the boat back then. It seems to me that the sailors who can not work with homosexuals are strikingly similar to the sailors who could not work with blacks back in the late 40's when integration was first started.

Ranb

 

[American]

The official policy is "don't ask, don't tell, don't persue."


The media leaves out the "don't persue" part because they want people to think the DoD runs homosexual-sting operations and hunts gays like nazis.

 

[aerocontrols]

Don't ask, don't tell was always a bad policy, even as a compromise measure.

I'll be glad when it's gone, and gays serve freely alongside straights.

No transexuals, though.

 

[LostAngeles]

I made a comment about her in my LJ today and snipped that same passage. It basically went along the lines that, "Ah, so if you're gay you must not be a good enough X" and went for the same "blacks and women" comparison.

Because blacks don't have the intelligence, women don't have the rationality/functionality, and gays/lesbians don't have the morality, Yay for the heterosexual white man.

And that's my nutshell take on that.

 

[Virgil]

great this is a great way for a foregin power to blackmail someone into betraying their country...


Virgil

 

[Blue Monk]

Everytime I read about this issue I get this mental image of Alexander the Great not being allowed in the military because he was gay.

I think anyone who steps up to the plate to serve their country should be commended. Who knows how many gays have fought and died for this country already.

Bigots seem to be so afraid that we're gonna run out of people for them to hate.

 

[Art Vandelay]

What was Alexander the Great's last name?

 

[Blue Monk]

What was Alexander the Great's last name?

Alexandros III Philippou Makedonon

 

[Art Vandelay]

So as far as his name is concerned, all we know is his first name was Alexander, his father was Phillip, and he was from Macedonia, but as far as his personal life, we know such intimate details as his sexual orientation?

 

[Jessica Blue]

At first I thought the statment was just homopobic, but then I realized it was just stupid.

It's homophobic and stupid. But the article doesn't say why sexual orientation should be so crucial to *military readiness* except for some guff about defending the law. What's the rationale for no gays? Is there one, beyond homophobia...?

 

[Sloe_Bohemian]

So as far as his name is concerned, all we know is his first name was Alexander, his father was Phillip, and he was from Macedonia, but as far as his personal life, we know such intimate details as his sexual orientation?

Yes.





Although there may be some scholars who know more about his name, for what's been discussed on this thread... his entire name, his father's identity and his ancestral home are everything that we know about his name. Which is a h@ll of a lot more than we'd know about you from your full name.

The European practice of listing one's occupation or distinguishing trait as a surname did not begin until almost 2000 years after Alex the Great did his thang.



What's your point?


Could it be that you don't know much about the history of European culture? Or did you want to ask Blue_M to cite a source for his factual statement? More to the point, what's your real concern... cause I don't think you're that curious about names.

 

[aerocontrols]

The European practice of listing one's occupation or distinguishing trait as a surname did not begin until almost 2000 years after Alex the Great did his thang.

Too bad.

Reading about Alexander Gaylord would have livened up history classes.

 

[Rob Lister]

What's the rationale for no gays? Is there one, beyond homophobia...?

Of course not but the question remains, is homophobia a valid rationale? If you don't veiw it from a politically (in?)correct position but instead from the aspect of the military planner/commander, it may well be.

Sure, the same could also be said for blacks and women serving in the military. In the case of blacks, the advantages far outweighed the disadvantages due to the existing racism within the ranks.

In the case of women, that is still up for debate. Sexism is not the only issue. For exampe, logistics, training, standards, berthing, hygine and privacy all have new meaning in a truly co-ed fighting force. Even these pale in comparison to problems rising from the natural instincts of those that comprise the majority of our ranks - young and very hormonal humans.

Edit to add: Your new avatar is nice but doesn't compare to the beauty of the other one.

 

[Art Vandelay]

My concern is that I think that more skepticism is warranted.

 

[AtheistArchon]

"There is no shortage of people in the military"

- Tell that to the soldiers overseas who've been extended and stop-lossed.

 

[Rob Lister]

My concern is that I think that more skepticism is warranted.

Why is that your concern?

 

[LW]

So as far as his name is concerned, all we know is his first name was Alexander, his father was Phillip, and he was from Macedonia, but as far as his personal life, we know such intimate details as his sexual orientation?

And as far as the name of George W Bush is concerned, we only know that his name is George Walker Bush but we don't know anything else about it.

As regards to the person of Alexander the Great, we know about him much more than about just any other ancient personage.

One thing to remember when speaking about the sexual orientation of any ancient person is that the concept of homosexuality is rather new. This doesn't mean that there weren't homosexuals back then, but that they didn't have the term to denote people who only wanted to have sex with members of the same sex.

In both Greece and Rome, at least among the upper social classes, it was pretty much standard behavior among men that they had sex with young (14-16 year old) boys, in Rome mostly with slaves but in Greece also with free men.

A number of Ancient writers made biographies for Alexander. Some of them (most notably Roman Quintuis Curtius Rufus who lived in the first century AD) include many passages of Alexander having male lovers: his closest friends Hephaestion and Craetus, eunuch Bagoas, a large number of other "eunuchs accustomed of taking the role of a woman", etc.

However, all historians (including the reliable Plutarch and Diodorus Sicelis) also mention female love interests for him: unnamed princess of Caria (possibly only for political reasons), his first wife Roxana of Hyrcania (who is said to have smitten him with her beauty and youthfullness), Barsine (widow of one of his enemies), and his second wife Statira (again, possibly political reasons). In addition to this he had a harem of 360 concubines (corresponding to the old tradition of Persian kings) of whom Diodorus writes that each night he chose one of them to spend the evening with. Then there was also the popular legend of him wooing the queen of the Amazons, but according to Plutarch that one was denied by even Alexander himself (he is quoted as saying: "I wonder where I was while this was happening to me.")

Plutarch and Diodorus don't explicitly mention sex with males but they don't explicitly deny it, either. Some of their passages seem to imply loving chemistry between Alexander and Hephaestion, but again, it might also be only a close friendship.

Anyway, based on ancient sources it doesn't seem very likely that Alexander was homosexual in the sense that he was only interested in men. A quite strong case for his bisexuality can be made, but there is also a small possibility that he might have been a heterosexual since the sources that concentrate on his relationships with men are not the most reliable ones.

 

[Rob Lister]

And as far as the name of George W Bush is concerned, we only know that his name is George Walker Bush but we don't know anything else about it...

Is English your native language? I ask because you appear to post from Finland but your writing is so clear and concise that it's hard to believe English isn't your first language.

 

[Art Vandelay]

Why is that your concern?

Because as LW showed, "Alexander was homosexual" is a rather simplistic statement of the historical record.

Is English your native language? I ask because you appear to post from Finland but your writing is so clear and concise that it's hard to believe English isn't your first language.

Of course, "native" and "first" aren't necessarily the same. It's quite possible that he learned English early enough that it's native, but still his second language. But then, I could just wait and let him tell you himself instead of trying to speak for him.

 

[catsmate]

Bump. Nearly one year after the ending of DADT and the predicted disaster appears not to have happened. [~1MB PDF]

Even in those units that included openly LGB service members, and that consequently should have been the most likely to experience a drop in cohesion as a result of repeal, cohesion did not decline after the new policy of open service was put into place. In fact, greater openness and honesty resulting from repeal seem to have promoted increased understanding, respect and acceptance.
Recruitment was unaffected by the repeal of DADT. In an era when enlistment standards are tightening, service-wide recruitment has remained robust.
Retention was unaffected by the repeal of DADT. There was no mass exodus of military members as a result of repeal, and there were only two verifiable resignations linked to the policy change, both military chaplains. Service members were as likely to say that they plan to re-enlist after DADT repeal as was the case pre-repeal.
DADT repeal has not been responsible for any new wave of violence or physical abuse among service members. The policy change appears to have enabled some LGB service members to resolve disputes around harassment and bias in ways that were not possible prior to repeal.