Questioninggeller
Illuminator
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SHOW: THE ABRAMS REPORT 6:00 PM EST
DATE: February 8, 2005 Tuesday
TRANSCRIPT: 020801cb.464
SECTION: NEWS; Domestic
LENGTH: 7494 words
HEADLINE: THE ABRAMS REPORT For February 8, 2005
BYLINE: Dan Abrams
...
ABRAMS: Chilling scene from last night`s episode of NBC`s hit show "Medium", inspired by the real life of Allison DuBois who says she`s seen and talked to dead people since she was just 6 years old. On the road to becoming a lawyer, she said she was sidetracked when she found that her gift could help police. Now she works with, among others, law enforcement to shut the door on unsolved crimes. When I talked to Allison last week she explained how it works.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ALLISON DUBOIS: I`m not quite sure exactly why I can do it or how it`s even possible. But the way I do it is I just see them and talk to them, all right, just hear them and respond to them. It`s just something that people who are mediums can do, just like you opening your eyes and being able to see things or hear something. We have this other sense that allows us to see this other place that other people don`t seem to be able to see.
ABRAMS: So you`re actually having conversations? I mean, if you don`t talk back, for example, do they say, you know, why are you not speaking back to me? Does it have to be an interchange?
DUBOIS: No, you can think it in your head and they`ll hear you. It doesn`t have to be, you know, out of your mouth, vocal.
ABRAMS: Do you have to be looking for a particular person, or do certain people just pop up?
DUBOIS: You know I`m not an ambulance chaser with what I do. So the people come to me or law enforcement comes to me. They give me a first name of a victim and I sit down and I write a profile on the person that committed the crime against the victim, so that they can, you know, find the person who actually perpetrated the crime. And I just tap into the head of the person that`s the murderer, and that`s how it works. And I don`t know how I`m doing it. I just know that I can do it.
ABRAMS: So let`s be clear. It`s not that people are just sort of showing up. The bottom line is you have to focus on the person, you have to know about the case, you have to know about the individual, and then, as a result of that, you`re able to -- I don`t know what the word is, channel information or get information.
DUBOIS: Yes, either of those are fine. Yes, that`s pretty much how it works. When I do individual readings like bringing people through who had died, you know, where it`s not necessarily traumatic or not necessarily a homicide, those people I`ll see walking around my house or in my yard before I start the reading or -- that`s different. But with law enforcement, I take it on a case-by-case basis and I focus on that one person.
ABRAMS: Are there any deceased people who you can`t channel? Any times when you say you know what? I`ve got nothing. I`ve got no reading. I`m sorry. I can`t be of any help.
DUBOIS: You know, I`ve read over 1,200 people, and there have been eight people that I`ve sent home and just -- it wasn`t that I couldn`t get the person that died, I just didn`t feel like the living person that was there was listening. And on one of those people, to give you an example of how difficult it can be for mediums sometimes -- because you can imagine, you know, there`s personality clashes with everybody.
It happens for us, too, with clients from time to time. But I had a woman and I said your son`s passed, and she said yes. And I said he wants you to know that he`s beautiful now. And she says, well, you know, he`s retarded. He wasn`t beautiful, and I said you`re not hearing me. I said your son wants you to know he`s beautiful now. He wanted her to be proud of him.
And she looked at me and she said, you know, I`m here for financial reasons. Can we talk about that? So that`s kind of the -- we get people like that, and those are the people that I tend to not want to read.
ABRAMS: Let`s talk about law enforcement, then. If you`re able to get anyone, as you say, why aren`t you able to help law enforcement solve every crime that you`re involved in?
DUBOIS: Well, first of all, that wasn`t what I wanted to do with my life. I don`t know about you, but you know, that -- it`s tedious. I have 150 cases right now that are ongoing just for me to work on. That`s a lot. I`m one person. I really like the medium-ship aspect of what I do. And another point I`d like to make is often, I`ll give the information. I`ll give them the first name of the perpetrator, what the connection was to the person who died, which you would think would simplify things. But unless they have the evidence to back it up or unless they actually apply the information, that`s not my job. My job is to give the information. What they do with it is up to them.
ABRAMS: Right. But...
DUBOIS: So...
ABRAMS: ... all these case, right, I mean if law enforcement comes to you and they`re using you in these various cases, you should be able to, if you`re able to channel them in every case, you should be able to provide them with information that`s going to, at the very least, help them solve the crime in each and every case where they ask you to be involved.
DUBOIS: I do, so does that answer your question?
ABRAMS: Yes, it does. No, if that`s the answer.
DUBOIS: OK.
ABRAMS: In every case you provide them information, and it`s always right?
DUBOIS: I`ve never worked a case and not provided them with specific information. What would be the point of working cases?
ABRAMS: And it`s always accurate (UNINTELLIGIBLE)?
DUBOIS: Yes, I`m accurate. I mean I`m a human being. I mean you know reporters don`t always give -- it`s not always the best story of your life or you know some stories you`re more proud of than others. We have our moments of being a human being like everybody else. But I`m pretty accurate or I wouldn`t do this because what would be the point? I would -- I`d be a lawyer right now. That was the plan...
ABRAMS: Yes...
DUBOIS: ... so this was a harder path to walk for me.
ABRAMS: What do you say to those who just don`t buy it? Who simply just don`t believe -- they believe that you`re well intentioned and that maybe you even feel it, but the bottom line is that it`s a bunch of hooey?
DUBOIS: Well and you know to each their own. That`s how I look at it. Not everybody believes in God. Not everybody is going to believe in me. You know, people don`t agree on a lot of things, so I don`t take that personally. And I guess the underlying truth to that is that when we die everybody finds out. So I`m not going to spend my life trying to convince everybody. And I don`t even feel like I need to. I`m just doing what I can for those who I can help, and that`s all I can do.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ABRAMS: Thanks Allison DuBois. There are a lot of skeptics out there who say there`s nothing psychic about detective work. When we come back, a skeptic takes on a psychic.
And later, if you wear those low-cut jeans, you may want to soon avoid the state of Virginia or you may be fined. I`m serious. It`s my "Closing Argument".
Your e-mails about these pictures of female soldiers mud wrestling at a detention center in Iraq set up quite a firestorm. I said I didn`t think it was that big a deal. Many of you are appalled.
(NEWS BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I see people that have passed.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Dead people. What, they just come over to your house without being invited?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They`re never invited.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ABRAMS: A clip from the new NBC show "Medium". We just heard from Allison DuBois, the real-life psychic who is -- works with police to -- at times to help solve crimes. She`s the inspiration for the show. But a lot of people think so-called psychic detectives have about as much to offer police as reading tealeaves.
"My Take" -- hey I`m dubious, but who am I to say? If these people can actually help police in some way, more power to them. Joining me now psychologist and director of the Skeptics Society, Michael Shermer and a well-known psychic who consults with police, Carol Pate.
All right, Mr. Shermer, we have heard from Allison DuBois, the inspiration for the show "Medium". You just don`t buy it, do you?
MICHAEL SHERMER, SKEPTICS SOCIETY DIRECTOR: Well I`m skeptical in the sense that when you say it works, what do you mean it works?
ABRAMS: She says she sees...
SHERMER: The anecdote...
ABRAMS: She says she sees dead people.
SHERMER: Yes, I understand. I know -- I understand what she says. But is it just anecdotes and whose word are we taking that it worked? Just hers or one police officer? For science to tell us whether it works or not, we need to know all of the comments she made to the police about each case and then count the number of hits and the number of misses, and then do a test to see if that`s greater than random.
The number -- is the number of hits greater than you`d expect by chance? That`s the only way to know. Typically what you have in cases like this is the psychic detectives go to the police, not vice versa, and then they offer general clues and specific clues. General clues like I see a body of water or I`m getting the woods. The body is in some woods or trees, something like that, pretty much what you`d expect.
And then lots and lots of specifics. You know, something about a white car, you know, something about a red dress. And if you throw out enough things, you`re bound to get some hits by chance. And this is even assuming that no information was released by the police on that particular case that the psychic detective could have picked up on. Even with that, you still have to know, well, OK, so she got two hits or three hits, once the case was solved. But how many comments were made? Fifty, 60 comments, and that`s typically what you see when you read about these cases...
ABRAMS: All right.
SHERMER: ... that they make lots and lots of statements...
ABRAMS: Carol Pate...
SHERMER: ... but very few hits.
ABRAMS: Carol Pate, what do you make of that?
CAROL PATE, PSYCHIC WHO CONSULTS WITH POLICE: I agree with him. I think he`s right. I think that there are a lot of would-be psychics out there. There are a lot of psychics that call up the police claiming that they`re psychic. I think you have to go by the track record of the psychic.
ABRAMS: My guess is that Mr. Shermer would question you as much as he`d question any other psychic, is that fair to say?
PATE: Absolutely.
ABRAMS: Yes.
SHERMER: Well, the -- I appreciate the psychic being skeptic, that`s really terrific. Takes a lot of intellectual honesty to say that. Yes, we have to count all of the hits and misses for all the psychics in order to test it. It`s the only way to know for sure...
ABRAMS: Are there any you have faith in?
SHERMER: I`ve never seen any that have passed any kind of control tests, psychics, mediums, Tarot card readers, palm readers, astrologers, none of them when you put them to the test do better than random chance.
ABRAMS: And...
SHERMER: They do a type of cold reading technique.
ABRAMS: All right, Ms. Pate, I mean do you agree...
PATE: Well I totally disagree with that.
ABRAMS: Yes, go ahead.
PATE: In my cases I have not gone to the police. They have come to me, or the families come to me. I give very detailed information always, usually a little too detailed. I try to be very analytical with it. I try not to go into emotionalism. I try to stick to the facts of the case and to what I`m getting. I want to be very cautious, because I never want to lead the police the wrong way. I don`t want someone to be convicted over information that I`ve given that was wrong. I do it very responsibly.
ABRAMS: What do...
SHERMER: I`d be curious...
ABRAMS: What do you make of Allison...
SHERMER: I`d be curious...
ABRAMS: Well go ahead, Mr. Shermer. Go ahead.
SHERMER: Well I`d just be curious to know something like Robert Blake`s wife. Why don`t one of these psychic detectives contact her and ask her what happened? Or Lee Harvey Oswald, ask him. Did he have collaborators in shooting Kennedy or do did he do it alone?
PATE: Well...
SHERMER: How come we don`t hear about those kinds of cases?
PATE: You`re mixing mediums and psychics. Not all psychics are mediums, and not all mediums are psychics.
ABRAMS: What`s the difference?
PATE: A medium is a person who can contact people who have passed over. A psychic is an individual that can read energy.
ABRAMS: And Allison DuBois, I think, is suggesting that she`s certainly be able -- she was talking about seeing dead people in her home. Do you have the same experiences, Ms. Pate?
PATE: I have. I have had those type of experiences, yes.
ABRAMS: And she was saying that in every case that she puts her mind to, she can channel information. Same for you?
PATE: Yes. But, there are some cases that are not supposed to close. There are some cases that time has to elapse. And there are some cases...
SHERMER: See, the...
PATE: ... that are not mine...
SHERMER: See, the problem with that answer is that it gives an explanation for all hits and misses. So if you get the hit, then you get the credit as being a psychic, and if you miss, then the answer is well then it wasn`t meant to be or there needed to be more time. So with that we can`t actually find out if there`s anything real going on or not. The only way to find out is to actually put it under control...
ABRAMS: And Ms. Pate, final word.
PATE: I totally disagree with that, in that I had a case, a murder case, and it took three years for that murder case to resolve. And the person that I said did it confessed.
ABRAMS: Yes.
PATE: That`s what I meant by that.
ABRAMS: All right, Carol Pate and Michael Shermer, thanks a lot. Appreciate it.
PATE: Thank you.
SHERMER: You`re welcome.
ABRAMS: A reminder, you can see the show "Medium" Monday on NBC at 10:00 Eastern, 9:00 Central.
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