devnull
Philosopher
It's on Australian TV again, saw it years ago.
How close is it to the truth?
How close is it to the truth?
Michael Moore's Sicko
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theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
Extremely close. Michael Moore is one of the most serious, diligent, and impartial documentarians in the past 50 years. You should view his reporting on America as the same as having lived there yourself for many years and gained the knowledge through direct personal experience.
devnull
Philosopher
So that's one for "complete and utter crap" then
Is it not true people go bankrupt even with medical insurance?
ddt
Mafia Penguin
You should keep in mind that Sicko was made before the Affordable Care Act (aka Obamacare) was passed. It would be nice if Michael Moore would revisit the question after a couple of years of Obamacare in action.
gabeygoat
Master Poster
So that's one for "complete and utter crap" then
Is it not true people go bankrupt even with medical insurance?
it's certainly true. It's the leading cause of bankruptcy in the US
Aepervius
Non credunt, semper verificare
AFAIR when i looked at it half a decade ago, some part were definitively based in truth (very low or near zero personal cost of social medicine for sick patient in europe, getting dropped from insurance in the US, or some treatment being refused because the insurance feels you should not get them IIRC more or less half of the docu), some part were theatrical and can be ignored safely (visit in cuba, visit of guatanamo). Eliminate all the cuba part and you got something which is very near the truth.
I remember darkly that there were some critic from people, but most were based on ridiculous conservative prejudice or misinformed points (like extremely long queue in socialized medicine country).
I appreciate your word "theatrical" because that is a more accurate version of my view than my use of the term "exaggerated." I agree. Moore does not do dry documentaries, but tries to provoke people starting with facts, and by using these facts as a framework in a theatrical way to tell a story that he is trying to get across.
I don't rely on Moore's movie for unbiased data, but just as a way of highlighting things in society that may need attention and correction.
barehl
Master Poster
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There were people getting dropped from health insurance 30 years ago when they got a serious illness. 20 years ago I knew people who couldn't change jobs because pre-existed conditions would prevent them from getting health insurance. Back when Clinton wanted to do something 70% of small businesses had health insurance. But by the time Obama took office this was down to 30%. The trend for over a decade was higher premiums, higher deductibles, and lower caps.
devnull
Philosopher
This is all so foreign to many us.... foreigners.... though. Of course, we pay a lot more tax, but then we dont have to step over dying people on the way to work. Id rather pay the tax. In fact, I pay 1.5% extra because I refuse to get private health insurance and I earn over a certain cap. Happy to do it.
Forget the cuba nonsense. What stuck with me was mainly the treatment of 911 first responders, the overpowering sense that americans appear to be missing the empathy gene (why should we pay for someone else?), and the overpowering sense that the expectation in the US is that a doctor should be massively rich, and not just comfortably rich.
If I had to point at a root cause though, Id point at how the senate works (lobbying etc). The whole structure just seems wrong and rife for abuse.
Forget the cuba nonsense. What stuck with me was mainly the treatment of 911 first responders, the overpowering sense that americans appear to be missing the empathy gene (why should we pay for someone else?), and the overpowering sense that the expectation in the US is that a doctor should be massively rich, and not just comfortably rich.
If I had to point at a root cause though, Id point at how the senate works (lobbying etc). The whole structure just seems wrong and rife for abuse.
devnull
Philosopher
Well, sorry, perhaps not nonsense but perhaps a little sensationalist. I mean, there's no real way of knowing whether longer term outcomes in cuba would have been any better or worse than under the american system, apart from cost. And perhaps the quality of care in cuba was overplayed just a little.
xjx388
Penultimate Amazing
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I've never stepped over a dying person to go to work. This isn't Mexico or Honduras!
There are merits to such a system. I prefer to take responsibility for my own care on my own terms.
Then Moore did what he set out to do. The situation was not as bad as he made it out to be. And why shouldn't doctors be as rich as they possibly can be? Don't they provide one of the fundamentally necessary services of a society?
America is not unique there.
Fair enough.
But I suspect neither one of us has much experience of the Cuban medical system. I have seen good and bad in the American system when travelling there. I also have some experience of the UK system and of course my home country's system (Australia).
It was said that one of the people was taken off I think 5 of the expensive drugs they were on. That sounded like a potentially very good outcome in the long term, not only in terms of less reactions, but also financially for the person in question.
I just did a quick check on medication. I am recently diagnosed with diabetes and I am on metformin, rosuvastatin for blood pressure and seretide for asthma.
Locally my prescription ( with no discounts) comes to $63.19. The best I could find from discount clubs etc came to $329.85 in the USA. Currency was converted to AUD for consistency.
Squeegee Beckenheim
Penultimate Amazing
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If you believe that it's a service which is "fundamentally necessary" to society, then why do you not also approve of healthcare being available to all for free?
devnull
Philosopher
or Las Vegas! Oh wait
Even if it could mean bankruptcy? Remember, Sicko was about people bankrupted by medical bills *even though they had good insurance*.
Im not convinced. Ive actually spoken to real Americans, some are/were members of this very forum, who were financially ruined by medical costs.
Because it would appear that this contributes to higher costs, which leads to HMOs knocking back otherwise routine procedures, which leads to poor patient outcomes.
I thought the interview with the NHS doctor was very telling. $1M apartment, nice car..... he'll probably never be as rich as an american doctor, but he was content with living comfortably and providing a valuable service to society.
Not at all, but it would appear the american system is specifically designed to screw the little guy.
devnull
Philosopher
I have crohn's disease, celiac's disease, liver disease and now kidney disease. I rattle when I walk
At one stage i was on Humira, which at the time was about $1800 a shot. I was taking 2 shots a month. That alone would have destroyed me. Total cost to me was $30.20 a month (from memory).
It's not so bad now because I had to come off Humira, but it's nice to know that the primary (only?) decision point about my medication is my health, and not what some bean counter wants.
Axiom_Blade
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The Shrike
Philosopher
In America, the worst thing you can be is a socialist.
The best thing you can be is a military man, ready to give his life at a moment's notice to protect our uniquely American freedom to never be socialists.
We reward our servicemen and women with 1) a guaranteed job, 2) on the job training, 3) college education, 4) early retirement, and 5) health care.
Waitaminute . . .
The best thing you can be is a military man, ready to give his life at a moment's notice to protect our uniquely American freedom to never be socialists.
We reward our servicemen and women with 1) a guaranteed job, 2) on the job training, 3) college education, 4) early retirement, and 5) health care.
Waitaminute . . .