Michael Moore deserves public humiliation

[Nie Trink Wasser]

no one is questioning his "documentary" in the press. It's really sad that people can make political films like this, call it a "documentary", stage most of what is put together, and is awarded with an oscar nomination.

anti-war protesting is highfashion and fat f*cking moore wins everyone's hearts by talking about how stupid and scared white men are.

Amazing and truly worthy of praise.

if anyone is interested in reading what Michael Moore DOESNT want you to.....go check out this site :

http://www.moorewatch.com


argue to your hearts content and maybe even throw tomatoes at him when its possible.

 

[The Central Scrutinizer]

no one is questioning his "documentary" in the press.

What are they supposed to "question"???

 

[corplinx]

I you don't like his book, return it to the store. Maybe send him a terse letter.

If you don't like his movie, don't watch it.

Capitalism is a great thing sometimes, being able to vote at the cash register.

Michael Moore is not an elected official, he is not a serious journalist, and he has just enough clout to get his french fries supersized at the same price you pay. I don't see why people want him drawn and quartered for making a book and movie with all the fact checking of a David Brock hit piece.

 

[Walter Wayne]

no one is questioning his "documentary" in the press.

Nearly every review of it has said something to the effect of "the movie was so well presented, we forgive him for his factual inaccuracies."

So they question it a bit, but really don't care. A lot of people will accept factually inaccurate stuff from their own side. If you don't you spend a lot of time arguing against the people on your side. Of course this is great fun, because people get confused about your political stance.

Walt

 

[Guest]

Michael Moore deserves a medal for finally showing the world that Americans can see themselves the way the rest of the world sees them. It's no use whining. The cartoon-character Americans in BFC were real people, and they could only have come from America. They represented many of the characteristics that have led America to be both despised and pitied, and there has been an almost total lack of American recognition of these problems.

anti-war protesting is highfashion and fat f*cking moore wins everyone's hearts by talking about how stupid and scared white men are.

Stupid scared AMERICAN white men. It wasn't about Canadians. It was about US self-image.

I'm checking your link.

 

[Guest]

I checked the www.moorewatch.com link. It seems to be some disgruntled guy making lots of ad-hominems about Moores weight, and quoting lots of other people who seem to be a bit rattled by what Moore says.......lots of vitriol....not much substance.

 

[Nie Trink Wasser]

other people who seem to be a bit rattled by what Moore says.......lots of vitriol....not much substance.

suuuuure.

not that its an archive of evidence against moore's arguments or anything like that. no way.Seems like a lot of skeptics here are willing to let con men get away with deception for profit as long as it suits their politics. Sweet.

During a stylized overview of US foreign policy, he claims that the U.S. gave $245 million in aid to the Taliban rulers of Afghanistan in 2000 and 2001. The Taliban aid tale is a favorite of Moore's that he has repeated in numerous media appearances over the past year. Contrary to his claim, the aid did not go to the Taliban -- it actually consisted of food and food security programs administered by the United Nations and non-governmental organizations to relieve an impending famine."
http://www.spinsanity.org/columns/20021119.html

 

[Occasional Chemist]

not that its an archive of evidence against moore's arguments or anything like that. no way.

Not that I much care about what Michael Moore does, but - on the moorewatch.com site you link - where is the evidence? The site's so poorly organized that all I can seem to find is a couple of folks whining about Moore's weight and that he might win some awards.

As for Oscar nominations, the fact that Forrest Gump won a Best Picture Oscar should tell you all you need to know about the Oscars.

 

[Nie Trink Wasser]

the site

there are archives of discussions and links to articles from the past 6 months or so......evidence, references, including links among the opinions for anyone interested in finding specific info.

there are mostly headlines posted to attract further investigation.

 

[John Harrison]

Michael Moore deserves a medal for finally showing the world that Americans can see themselves the way the rest of the world sees them. It's no use whining. The cartoon-character Americans in BFC were real people, and they could only have come from America. They represented many of the characteristics that have led America to be both despised and pitied, and there has been an almost total lack of American recognition of these problems.

I'm glad that the cartoon verified your beliefs, but if you think it's accurate you are beyond hope.

 

[Scorpy]

I you don't like his book, return it to the store. Maybe send him a terse letter.

If you don't like his movie, don't watch it.

Capitalism is a great thing sometimes, being able to vote at the cash register.

Michael Moore is not an elected official, he is not a serious journalist, and he has just enough clout to get his french fries supersized at the same price you pay. I don't see why people want him drawn and quartered for making a book and movie with all the fact checking of a David Brock hit piece.

Because Moore is an obnoxious jerk who judges his successes by how many people he can tick off, the truth notwithstanding.

 

[Celtic Warrior]

I checked out the site you listed. Basically it's a bunch of whacko ultra-right-wing conservatives that are obsessed with one whacko ultra-left-wing liberal. What a bunch of losers in desperate need of a life.

 

[The Central Scrutinizer]

Re: the site

there are archives of discussions and links to articles from the past 6 months or so......evidence, references, including links among the opinions for anyone interested in finding specific info.

there are mostly headlines posted to attract further investigation.

Again:

What are they supposed to "question"???

 

[Guest]

I'm glad that the cartoon verified your beliefs, but if you think it's accurate you are beyond hope.

Erm......

The statistics for firearm-related homicide speak for themselves. The pictures which regularly come out of the US speak for themselves.

Michael Moore allowed people to hang themselves with their own rope - all he did was ask the questions and point the camera at them.

 

[CWL]

Let's try a simple experiment as to the credibility of www.moorewatch.com (I agree with UCE that it is quite packed with ad-homs, which doesn't really add to its credibility).

On the site, it is cleary stated that the incident in the North Country Bank was staged:

So far 60 Minutes has repeated most of Moore's lies without questioning any of them, such as the gun from the bank, an incident which was totally staged by Moore.

My question is whether any poster on this forum (resident in the US near a North County Bank office ) has the possibility to verify whether or not the bank in fact offers guns in conjunction with the opeining of a new account. If so I suggest doing so and posting the result in this thread.

 

[Guest]

The title of this thread says it all - "Let's publicly humiliate Michael Moore". This is the sort of tactic used by mormons to discredit ex-members who are making the truth about mormonism known - you can't actually make any substantive arguments against them so you dish the dirt on them and try to destroy their public image. Both the originator of this thread and the author of that 'Moorewatch' site are trying to do the same thing.

Shooting the messenger doesn't solve anything at all, especially in a case like this where the people on the outside (the rest of the world) pretty much felt like Moore about Americans anyway. Moore's work causes much more controversy inside America than it does on the outside because what he says is already widely recognised by people on the outside - in the cinema where I saw it there was long and loud applause from the audience when it finished. It's Americas self-image he is challenging, and that is apparently taboo (unpatriotic?) in America, which is why people are clamouring for him to be "publicly humiliated" and producing websites full off ad-hominems but somewhat lacking in substance. The whole "saying bad things about America is unpatriotic" attitude is scary. It's heading towards the Nazi custom of refering to Germany as 'the Fatherland'.

 

[Thanz]

On the site, it is cleary stated that the incident in the North Country Bank was staged:

My question is whether any poster on this forum (resident in the US near a North County Bank office ) has the possibility to verify whether or not the bank in fact offers guns in conjunction with the opeining of a new account. If so I suggest doing so and posting the result in this thread.

I don't live near the bank so I can't check myself, but I found this claim on moorewatch (without backup) interesting. I did some checking, and eventually found (on Spinsanity, I think) that the claim is that people don't actually get guns at the bank - rather, they are given a voucher and they go to the gun store for it. The "staged" allegation is that the gun is actually given at the bank.

The FAQ at Moore's website for the film says that the incident is real, and that there was a choice of a gun, golf clubs or a grandfather clock.

I think that both sides are a little bit right on this one. I would imagine that usually you get a voucher, rather than the gun, at the bank. Moore probably pushed a little to get the gun given to him at the bank. The bank could have easily said no, here's your voucher. I don't think that this qualifies as "staged" however, especially when presented in the unqualified way by those at Moorewatch.

 

[Shaun from Scotland]

I don't live near the bank so I can't check myself, but I found this claim on moorewatch (without backup) interesting. I did some checking, and eventually found (on Spinsanity, I think) that the claim is that people don't actually get guns at the bank - rather, they are given a voucher and they go to the gun store for it. The "staged" allegation is that the gun is actually given at the bank.

The FAQ at Moore's website for the film says that the incident is real, and that there was a choice of a gun, golf clubs or a grandfather clock.

I think that both sides are a little bit right on this one. I would imagine that usually you get a voucher, rather than the gun, at the bank. Moore probably pushed a little to get the gun given to him at the bank. The bank could have easily said no, here's your voucher. I don't think that this qualifies as "staged" however, especially when presented in the unqualified way by those at Moorewatch.

I have "acquired" this film, and the woman at the bank specifically says:

Bank Teller: " We have a vault, which at all times we keep 500 firearms"

Moore: 500 of these you have in your vault. Wow"

Now, I don't wanna get involved in a debate on the merits of this film here. But if the woman at the bank says the bank has 500 firearms in it's vault, what other conclusion can we draw? The lady also says that they are both a bank and a licensed firearms dealer.
Moore is then given a gun. I understand from talking to Wolverine this is a demonstration model. It then cuts directly to him leaving the bank, but not from directly inside. You do not actually see him leaving the bank with the gun. You only see him leave the foyer of the bank with a gun. So it really is not clear. But then, why do they 500 firearms in the vault?

I know Wolverine has read a few articles on this scene - opinion on this buddy?

 

[Patrickt]

Central Scrutinizer:

from the Random House Webster's Unabridged:

Documentary
2. Motion Pictures, Television. based on or re-creating an actual event, era, life story, etc., that purports to be factually accurate and contains no fictional elements: a documentary life of Gandhi.

If the movie is so well presented Moore can be forgiven factual inaccuracies then it is an entertaining movie and not a documentary.

 

[Nie Trink Wasser]

randi.org mention on http://www.moorewatch.com/ :

"A word about this site and it's mission
Author: JimK
I was recently pointed to this message board ( http://host.randi.org/vbulletin/newreply.php?action=newreply&threadid=14288 ), where our little corner of the blogosphere was being discussed. I'm sure discussions like this take place daily in the online world of Moore, and I'm sure we get the short end of the stick from those who believe Moore is doing, for lack of a better term, "God's work."

Allow me to clear up a few things.

- The ad-hominem attacks on Moore's weight are calculated. The man wrote a book calld "Stupid White Men." He's attacked people all over the world for their looks, their intellect, their politics and their sense of self. He makes his living with biting sarcastic insults disguised as social commentary. If you think this means he's off limits to these types of attacks himself, then you are clearly depriving a villiage somewhere of a perfectly servicable idiot. Get thee hence to your post and begin idioting.

- This site has no facts. Just look around...we're constantly digging up facts that refute the nonsense Moore opffers up as the truth. If you don't see it, then I say *you* have an agenda and you're simply being belligerent because we don't agree. It's your right to look like a jackass, so I'll leave you to it.

- The questions that need to be asked: EVERYTHING! Moore makes things up, takes creative license, stages vignettes for a "documentary," and no one thinks these things should be questioned? The larger issue, of course, is if he lies about even ONE thing in his "documentary," what else is he lying about? He's putting himself out there as the harbinger of truth, and he's not. He's putting himself out there as a guy you should trust, and he's not. Am I saying you shoudl trust us? No...do your own research. We're just pointing these things out because no one else is doing it.

- The gun in the bank issue needs addressing. Neither I nor anyone else writing for this site ever said the bank did not give out guns. They did. It is in fact a program they ran, and may still be running, whereupon when you open an account that meets certain criteria, you get a firearm.

What *I* said, and I know this requires reading comprehension, so I'll take it slow, is that the gun was NEVER handed to Moore in the bank the day of the transaction, the way it was presented in the movie. STOP. I know your next objction: "But they never *said* it was the same day!" I know, but they damn sure implied it. He even asked the teller if it was a good idea to give out guns in a bank...and cut the footage.

We never heard the answer.

Truth is, there was a waiting period and a background check, and an FFL had to transfer that firearm to it's rightful owner. We're never told who actually filled out the ATF form, or for that matter who really opened the account. We don't even knwo if one was opened. Getting a firearm usually requires following local laws, and nowhere in the film did they outline what laws were followed...we just saw a cute little staged vignette, designed to leave you with the impression that you can walk into a North Country Bank office, open a savings account with ten bucks and walk out with a deadly weapon.

That's not true. Nothing about the incident, except the barest facts, was true. And THAT is the allegation this site has made about the North Country Bank incident.

Someone asked why they keep 500 guns in a vault at the bank. Simple: THEY OWN THEM. That's what you have to do in order to be legal in this country. The owner is required by FEDERAL LAW to retain posession of the guns until such time as they are transferred to the new owner. That also means that if they stored them with a gun dealer, they would have to pay a fee, likely per gun, to transfer them to the dealer, then transfer them to the customer. The dealer would charge storage, insurance...you'd be an idiot to keep them anywhere else BUT a bank vault under these circumstances.

But I suppose nothing we say matters...we're just attacking Moore's weight around here. Facts be damned, full speed ahead with the spin doctoring!

http://www.moorewatch.com/comments.php?id=157_0_1_0_C "