Maybe organic farming is better?

Re: Re: Maybe organic farming is better?

Drooper said:
Unfortunately for the authors, the market has proved this theory in general to be incorrect over the last 22 years.
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Ah, you want to elaborate on that?
 
Re: Re: Re: Maybe organic farming is better?

IllegalArgument said:
Ah, you want to elaborate on that?
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Well, after 22 years "organic" produce is still significantly more expensive to produce and hence significantly more expensive than "conventionally" grown produce.

Unfortunately a trial is simply a trial. There could be some useful lessons for the "organic" farming industry in the work, but the extrapolation in the conclusions is just observably false.
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: Maybe organic farming is better?

Drooper said:
Well, after 22 years "organic" produce is still significantly more expensive to produce and hence significantly more expensive than "conventionally" grown produce.

Unfortunately a trial is simply a trial. There could be some useful lessons for the "organic" farming industry in the work, but the extrapolation in the conclusions is just observably false.
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I'm really not trying to be argumentive, but isn't what the study is that it's not more expensive, at least energy-wise. What data do you have to support your side?
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Maybe organic farming is better?

IllegalArgument said:
I'm really not trying to be argumentive, but isn't what the study is that it's not more expensive, at least energy-wise. What data do you have to support your side?
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I don't need data.

The synopsis clearly says:

the net economic return per acre either equal to or higher than that of conventionally produced crops
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Fine. But that is the result of an academic expeirment.

In reality the same trial is conducted around the world millions and millions of times over (i.e. the actual commercial production of these crops by real farmers - "organic" and "conventional" on real farms selling on real markets). This much larger scale and entirely realistic "trial" gives results that show "organic" production is more expensive and yields are lower.
 
When one goes to the grocery store, you find large racks of big, healthy-looking, low-priced fruits and vegetables. Next to them, on the "organic" rack, you'll find small, wrinkled, and vastly over-priced fruits and vegetables.

At least in our area, the organic stuff is not exactly setting the world on fire.
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Maybe organic farming is better?

IllegalArgument said:
I'm really not trying to be argumentive, but isn't what the study is that it's not more expensive, at least energy-wise. What data do you have to support your side?
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Real world prices. "Organically grown" is more expensive in the market. If "organically grown" produce cost less or the same to grow, most produce would be organically grown, since farmers would really like the extra profit. When enough farmers went after that additional profit, it would drive the price down. That hasn't happened.

Note this sentence from the website:
Pimentel noted that although cash crops cannot be grown as frequently over time on organic farms because of the dependence on cultural practices to supply nutrients and control pests and because labor costs average about 15 percent higher in organic farming systems, the higher prices that organic foods command in the marketplace still make the net economic return per acre either equal to or higher than that of conventionally produced crops.

I have no idea what "cultural practices" means in this context, but it pretty clearly says to me that it's more expensive. It's only the fact that you get a higher price that makes profits comparable.
So, yields are the same, but you can't get them as frequiently. That sounds very similar to lower yields, if you squint a bit.
 
Bikewer said:
When one goes to the grocery store, you find large racks of big, healthy-looking, low-priced fruits and vegetables. Next to them, on the "organic" rack, you'll find small, wrinkled, and vastly over-priced fruits and vegetables.

At least in our area, the organic stuff is not exactly setting the world on fire.
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No offense, but here the organic stuff much better tasting than the store. I started bringing in Trader Joe's apples, without telling folks where they were from. People said they are better than the Safeway apples. Don't even get me started on how much better TJ's bananas taste. They disappear quicker at work than the chocolate snacks.

So, I think our two anecdotes cancel each other out.
 
IllegalArgument said:
No offense, but here the organic stuff much better tasting than the store. I started bringing in Trader Joe's apples, without telling folks where they were from. People said they are better than the Safeway apples. Don't even get me started on how much better TJ's bananas taste. They disappear quicker at work than the chocolate snacks.

So, I think our two anecdotes cancel each other out.
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And the price of each in comparison was what?
 
Drooper said:
And the price of each in comparison was what?
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That's a very good point, I was just commenting on dueling anecdotes.

Honestly, I don't know how much TJ's bananas cost.
 
Bikewer said:
When one goes to the grocery store, you find large racks of big, healthy-looking, low-priced fruits and vegetables. Next to them, on the "organic" rack, you'll find small, wrinkled, and vastly over-priced fruits and vegetables.
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I think it really depends on where you go. If I'm in a Whole Foods the produce, both conventional and organic, look great. In my experience they taste the same. (btw, I don't buy organic myself but friends do which leads to great debates over dinner)

Maybe the fruits in your area look wrinkled because the consumers are fairly intelligent, don't spend 50% more for organic, and the organic produce sits there and goes bad.
 
IllegalArgument said:
That's a very good point, I was just commenting on dueling anecdotes.

Honestly, I don't know how much TJ's bananas cost.
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If they're the same price, but better then just buy them. Most likely everyone esle would too and that would mean that they would be sold everywhere in massive quantities.

Are they?

This is deductive reasoning.
 
IllegalArgument said:
No offense, but here the organic stuff much better tasting than the store.
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The television chef Rick Stein did a blind tasting of roast chickens. One was an ordinary chicken from the butcher, one was from a supermarket, and the other was a super-duper free-range organic Chicken with a capital C.

He was very surprised indeed when the organic Chicken didn't win. He didn't even pick it out himself.

My anecdote was on the television, so trumps all of yours ;)

In truth I think some organic foods can taste better than their supermarket equivalents, but I rather suspect that this has more to do with varieties chosen than any innate superiority of the Organic method.
 
Drooper said:
If they're the same price, but better then just buy them. Most likely everyone esle would too and that would mean that they would be sold everywhere in massive quantities.

Are they?

This is deductive reasoning.
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I could do without the final condescending comment.

People don't always buy purely on price.

Do you drink tap water or bottle water? Why would anyone buy bottle water if they live in the first world?

Playing Devil's advocate at this point. Maybe non-organic farming is more cost effective short term, but long term problems with resistant bugs due to overuse of pesticides will be more costly.

By the way, I know organic is a mis-leading term. A buzzword if you will.
 
richardm said:
The television chef Rick Stein did a blind tasting of roast chickens. One was an ordinary chicken from the butcher, one was from a supermarket, and the other was a super-duper free-range organic Chicken with a capital C.

He was very surprised indeed when the organic Chicken didn't win. He didn't even pick it out himself.

My anecdote was on the television, so trumps all of yours ;)

In truth I think some organic foods can taste better than their supermarket equivalents, but I rather suspect that this has more to do with varieties chosen than any innate superiority of the Organic method.
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You could be right. I know that packaging can effect how people perceive something to taste.

I'm just bother by the automatic anti-organic comments. And I don't even go looking for "organic" stuff. I just blinding buy food, without looking for those kinds of labels.
 
IllegalArgument said:
I could do without the final condescending comment.

People don't always buy purely on price.

Do you drink tap water or bottle water? Why would anyone buy bottle water if they live in the first world?

Playing Devil's advocate at this point. Maybe non-organic farming is more cost effective short term, but long term problems with resistant bugs due to overuse of pesticides will be more costly.

By the way, I know organic is a mis-leading term. A buzzword if you will.
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No intention to be condescending, just humour. Apologies for any offence taken.

I said that if the two were the same price, but one was superior (and perceived to be so) people would opt for the superior.

A better water analogy would be giving someone a choice of two bottles of Evian, one more expensiv than the other.

Regarding the time issue, "organic" farming has been in practice for long enough for these benefits to come through and to be measured by producers.
 
When we're talking about pricing, you have to figure in percieved value by the customer. The fat, shiny apple that costs less than the much smaller organic apple is going to be percieved as a better value.

This can change over time, as consumers become better educated about what they're buying. Something we have'nt touched on here is this; are the organically-grown fruits, veggies, and livestock "better" than the ordinary production items.
It's one of those things that seems like a given. No pesticides! No chemical fertilizer! Just nature, taking it's course.
But when it comes to the end product, is there really any significant difference? The organic-food producers would like you to think so, as would any number of diet "authorities" who's credentials may be suspect.

There does seem to be some correlation between the large quantities of steroids and antibiotics used in meat production and human health, but I havn't done any reading in the area.
 
Bikewer said:
There does seem to be some correlation between the large quantities of steroids and antibiotics used in meat production and human health, but I havn't done any reading in the area.
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I can't speak for other countries, but here the controls on the use of antibiotics and hormones in meat production are extremely strict. Great pains are taken to ensure that none of these things is prresent in the final product.

There have been accidents in the past, but these have led to even tighter controls. As things stand, normal legislation pretty much has any problems likely to be caused by drugs, pesticides and so on surrounded. Which unfortunately doesn't stop the "organic" lobby from grossly exaggerating the hazards of normal, legally produced food in order to promote practices which go way beyond any reasonable precautions, and when applied to animals in need of medical treatment can seriously compromise welfare.

Rolfe.
 
I generally avoid organic produce, cost & quality being some of the reasons. But there are some brands I buy because they're better...such as some of the beverages...they tend to be a bit more interesting (ie. chunks of ginger in the ginger ale). But I think that's just a brand thing, and has nothing to do with being organic.
 
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