Mary Magdalene...jezebel or prophet??

freudianlip

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I,m sitting here sipping my Earl Grey Tea...( one sugar please.. for future reference) and centuries of Irish Catholic guilt...can't go in the church after a baby..don't take the Eucharist during menses, only men can be priests...etc.. are neatly weighting the chip on my drooping shoulder.Even though I am not Catholic my mum is...Oh My God...is she.. When I try to come to grips with the notion that if Miss Magdelane (RIP) had not been suppressed by Pope whoever...whenever AD...where would we be now??? What actual empirical evidence is there to validate the hypothesis that there was a significant female in the Bible and that it has affected modernity. Would anyone care to contribute with a little erudite information or at least tell me if I am issuing forth drivel???:(
 
In the various gospels that didn't make the canonical cut, there are a variety of references to the lady, and one (at least) devoted primarily to her.

It's fairly obvious that there were a number of female followers of JC, and that they contributed materially to his activities. According to some of these traditions, Mary was an apostle, and highly-ranked at that.

Of course, there is essentially no reliability for any of these traditions, but they did exist, only being left out of the emerging "canon" much later.
 
In the various gospels that didn't make the canonical cut, there are a variety of references to the lady, and one (at least) devoted primarily to her.

It's fairly obvious that there were a number of female followers of JC, and that they contributed materially to his activities. According to some of these traditions, Mary was an apostle, and highly-ranked at that.

Of course, there is essentially no reliability for any of these traditions, but they did exist, only being left out of the emerging "canon" much later.

Unfortunatly, the non-canonical gospels also offer illustrations to the contrary, such as the Gospel of Thomas, which has a couple very sexist statements about the ability of women to follow Christ (purportedly made by Christ).
 
If Mary was an apostle why then has she been portrayed by the RC Church body as a sinner and depicted as such in many religious works of art a contextual and historical reflection of the era and mindset they were generated from?:confused:
 
Jesus had women folowers and the main one was Mary Magdalene, his wife or one of his wifes.

Twelve Women Apostles of Jesus





[SIZE=-1]"[/SIZE][SIZE=-1]Of all the daring things which Jesus did, the most amazing
was his sudden announcement on the evening of January 16:
"On the morrow we will set apart ten women for the ministering
work of the kingdom." At the beginning of the two weeks'
period during which the apostles and the evangelists were to
be absent from Bethsaida on their furlough, Jesus requested
David to summon his parents back to their home and to dispatch messengers calling to Bethsaida ten devout women who had served in the administration of the former encampment and the tented infirmary. These women had all listened to the instruction given the young evangelists, but it had never occurred to either themselves or their teachers that Jesus would dare to commission women to teach the gospel of the kingdom and minister to the sick.

These ten women selected and commissioned by Jesus were: Susanna, the daughter of the former chazan of the Nazareth synagogue; Joanna, the wife of Chuza, the steward of Herod Antipas; Elizabeth, the daughter of a wealthy Jew of Tiberias and Sepphoris; Martha, the elder sister of Andrew and Peter; Rachel, the sister-in-law of Jude, the Master's brother in the flesh; Nasanta, the daughter of Elman, the Syrian physician; Milcha, a cousin of the Apostle Thomas; Ruth, the eldest daughter of Matthew Levi; Celta, the daughter of a Roman centurion; and Agaman, a widow of Damascus. Subsequently, Jesus added two other women to this group -- Mary Magdalene and Rebecca, the daughter of Joseph of Arimathea.

Jesus authorized these women to effect their own organization and directed Judas to provide funds for their equipment and for pack animals. The ten elected Susanna as their chief and Joanna as their treasurer. From this time on they furnished their own funds; never again did they draw upon Judas for support. It was most astounding in that day, when women were not even allowed on the main floor of the synagogue (being confined to the women's gallery), to behold them being recognized as authorized teachers of the new gospel of the kingdom. The charge which Jesus gave these ten women as he set them apart for gospel teaching and ministry was the emancipation proclamation which set free all women and for all time; no more was man to look upon woman as his spiritual inferior. This was a decided shock to even the twelve apostles.

Notwithstanding they had many times heard the Master say that "in the kingdom of heaven there is neither rich nor poor, free nor bond, male nor female, all are equally the sons and daughters of God," they were literally stunned when he proposed formally to commission these ten women as religious teachers and even to permit their traveling about with them. The whole country was stirred up by this proceeding, the enemies of Jesus making great capital out of this move, but everywhere the women believers in the good news stood stanchly behind their chosen sisters and voiced no uncertain approval of this tardy acknowledgment of woman's place in religious work. And this liberation of women, giving them due recognition, was practiced by the apostles immediately after the Master's departure, albeit they fell back to the olden customs in subsequent generations. Throughout the early days of the Christian church women teachers and ministers were called deaconesses and were accorded general recognition. But Paul, despite the fact that he conceded all this in theory, never really incorporated it into his own attitude and personally found it difficult to carry out in practice."

***********************************

The above was taken from an esoteric book, but seeing a few parts like this one, ring TRUE, I have reposted it. because we do know that te church Patriarchy tried to hide the freedom and equality that Jesus taught and lived concerning women. (SEE
[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]Equality not Patriarchy[/SIZE][SIZE=-1]). For as He said to all, "For if ye (male and female) continue in my WORD, then are ye my disciples indeed and the truth shall set you FREE." (John 8; 31-32)

This excerpt is easy to understand ... and agrees totally with the principles of the Lord and so in my opinion. it is true History and is needed to be told to our women in the Lord to give them faith that they were loved by the Lord just like the men, and that they are needed for His Service just like the men, and they are totally equal to the men in their service. Our women do NOT have to take a subservient stance to men, or their worldly husbands, if they have the spiritual qualities needed for whatever the Lord wants them to do and are called by the Lord, their spiritual Bridegroom. All positions of responsibility have to be available to them if they are qualified, and by the Grace of God, they shall be because the Lord is not a sexist...... and they shall dream dreams and prophesy in the Latter Days (SEE
[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]Women Prophetesses in the End Time[/SIZE][SIZE=-1])

For we absolutely need them to carry on where their foremothers of the past left off. For notice from the listing above that Mary Magdalene, the 11th woman ordained by the Lord, (who probably won the 12th woman apostle, Rebecca, the daughter of Joseph of Arimathia) went together with Joseph and established the first missionary outpost in Glastonbury England. And it was thru them that much of the world was evangelized for the Lord via England's conversion and many of the
[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]Ten Missing Tribes of Israel[/SIZE][SIZE=-1] -- that had fled in there after their fleeing from the Babylonian advance in Jeremiah's time. (SEE [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]Church History, King Arthur and the Templars[/SIZE][SIZE=-1])[/SIZE][SIZE=-1]. So did we need our women... YES, and do we need them in the Latter Days YES !!! For there is neither male nor female in Christ Jesus. And so we better believe it. God bless the first 12 women apostles of the Lord !!!

In My Opinion
David Jay Jordan

[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]Besides the Holy Spirit is female. Its only the patriarchial church system that wants to control wioemn that has demoted women to secondary status.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1][/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1][/SIZE]
 
Unfortunatly, the non-canonical gospels also offer illustrations to the contrary, such as the Gospel of Thomas, which has a couple very sexist statements about the ability of women to follow Christ (purportedly made by Christ).

But religious student, before you stated that scholars only used your particular type Bible and now you are talking about Thomas as a possible source of truth. Are you cherry picking as I was accused of because I say there is more than the patriachial canon.

Interesting ........ diffetrent answer of yours R.S.
 
The portrayal of MM as a "prostitute" did not occur until the middle ages, as I understand it, when an increasingly patriarchichal church wished to downgrade her role.

In the dozens of gospels that are known to have existed, no doubt one can find pretty much what one likes.....
 
Yes Bikewer, I would have to agree with you. I do think that most if not all religious texts are indeed subject to interpretation which is defined historically and contextually....:hypnotize But how many gospels have been located and where are they now.... If in the vaults of Rome then I feel we are still under the wings of the Dark Ages..Should they be treated as historical texts and thrust into the academic world for analysis?

How does the Bible,Qur'an, Torah and others fare under scientific scrutiny...Is it a case of DeBunked all round...
 
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But religious student, before you stated that scholars only used your particular type Bible and now you are talking about Thomas as a possible source of truth. Are you cherry picking as I was accused of because I say there is more than the patriachial canon.

Interesting ........ diffetrent answer of yours R.S.

I simply stated a preference language before, or if one cannot read anything other than English RSV or NRSV. I don't believe any version is word of god or anyhting, those are just the most accurate translations. You also have to look at things such as Qumran to study the development. I never said Gospel of Thomas was source of truth, I stated that it was possible evidence that was contradictory to other points of possible evidence, making a final conclusion difficult.

As for MM as Jesus's wife, prove it. Jesus would have been expected to be married in his time period, and the gospels would likely have noted it. I am not saying their is not debate about MM's role, but that there is no evidence Jesus was married. The absence of it is more likely the reflection of an actual absence than some conspiracy.

You have also continualy faile to prove your little ax to grind of the holy spirit having been invisioned as feminine.
 
Was there actually marriage back in JC's time?? In Brehon law or at least in celtic druidic Ireland all you had to do was leap over a broom. And a woman could divorce her fella' if he wasn't satisfactory in bed....or in the head
Speaking of which...this DavidJay guy doesn't sound very scientifically grounded...but can anyone out there come up with some evidence to support me...
 
Was there actually marriage back in JC's time?? In Brehon law or at least in celtic druidic Ireland all you had to do was leap over a broom. And a woman could divorce her fella' if he wasn't satisfactory in bed....or in the head
Speaking of which...this DavidJay guy doesn't sound very scientifically grounded...but can anyone out there come up with some evidence to support me...


This source says yes. Depending, of course, on what you mean by "actually marriage."
 
Was there actually marriage back in JC's time?? In Brehon law or at least in celtic druidic Ireland all you had to do was leap over a broom. And a woman could divorce her fella' if he wasn't satisfactory in bed....or in the head
Speaking of which...this DavidJay guy doesn't sound very scientifically grounded...but can anyone out there come up with some evidence to support me...

Where there's divorce, doesn't it follow that there must have been marriage? I think there's plenty of evidence in the bible that the Jews of Jesus's time and before had a pretty firmly developed tradition of marriage, similar to what we would call marriage. So did the Romans and Greeks well before Jesus. Roman civil marriage was quite well codified (and rather complicated).

As to Davidjayjordan's scientific credibility, he certainly does not evince any scientific wisdom, and his ideas on biology, sexuality and evolution are bizarre, to say the least. He claims to have majored in some scientific area in college, though I don't recall any specifics on his area of concentration, or what kind of college, and I seem to recall he also had a story about how he rejected evolution from the start, winning his case in biology despite going against the official position. This is entirely his account of it, for what it's worth, and what it's worth is up to you to judge from context.
 
Was there actually marriage back in JC's time?? In Brehon law or at least in celtic druidic Ireland all you had to do was leap over a broom.

What is marriage but some form of public affirmation before family, friends and officialdom? It has usually followed pregnancy, with all its implications, and is hard to deny later.

And a woman could divorce her fella' if he wasn't satisfactory in bed....or in the head

The betrothal period generally weeds out the impotent or otherwise incompetent.

Speaking of which...this DavidJay guy doesn't sound very scientifically grounded...but can anyone out there come up with some evidence to support me...

Do not engage; DJJ is a tar-baby AWOL from his own authored threads. Your instincts are correct in this case.
 
What is marriage but some form of public affirmation before family, friends and officialdom? It has usually followed pregnancy, with all its implications, and is hard to deny later.



The betrothal period generally weeds out the impotent or otherwise incompetent.



Do not engage; DJJ is a tar-baby AWOL from his own authored threads. Your instincts are correct in this case.

DJJ is gone for like seven days now.
 
I,m sitting here sipping my Earl Grey Tea...( one sugar please.. for future reference) and centuries of Irish Catholic guilt...can't go in the church after a baby..don't take the Eucharist during menses, only men can be priests...etc.. are neatly weighting the chip on my drooping shoulder.Even though I am not Catholic my mum is...Oh My God...is she.. When I try to come to grips with the notion that if Miss Magdelane (RIP) had not been suppressed by Pope whoever...whenever AD...where would we be now??? What actual empirical evidence is there to validate the hypothesis that there was a significant female in the Bible and that it has affected modernity. Would anyone care to contribute with a little erudite information or at least tell me if I am issuing forth drivel???:(

The early Christians were heterodox, so it's hard to describe 'them' uniformly. It appears that for many generations in Rome and other major Roman cities (Ravenna, Alexandria, and Carthage come to mind) women held an equal status with men in the church. The earliest manuscripts describe some women as Apostles.

The slow elimination of these high-profile women from the Gospels appears to have been a gradual process, and is probably an example of incompetence rather than malevolence. By late antiquity, the Roman civilization had imploded and the sexual egalitarianism of this society was replaced with early Gothic/Vandalic/Visigothic feudalism and its male-dominated culture. Monks who grew up in this environment reading about women as equals probably just thought it was a mistake in some earlier copy and 'corrected' it.

Another cause is the accidental inclusion of a monk's editorializing in subsequent copies. An example is the passage in 1 Corinthians 14, which is now traced to the accidental inclusion of one monk's opinion, as he must have written it in the margins in his own personal copy that was later used for scribing. Subsequent monks mistook it for part of the original Gospel, and squeezed it in. Some after verse 33; others after verse 40.


Back to my earlier statement about women apostles, this was referring mostly to Junia and her husband Andronicus. It is clear in the early texts that Junia was "foremost among the apostles" (Paul, Romans 16 v7)

This was accepted for generations until the original understanding was lost, and then the mysoginist damage control set in. It followed this course:

1. Alter the wording a bit, so the 'apostles' part doesn't refer to Junia and Andronichus. From:
Greet Andronicus and Junia, my relatives and fellow prisoners, who are formost among the apostles."
to:
Greet Andronicus and Junia, my relatives. And also greet my fellow prisoners who are foremost among the apostles."

2. Some scribes just assumed that the name was incorrectly spelled, and copied it into their versions as 'Junias'. Problem: how could two men be married?

3. Assume the passage was really about Andronicus - foremost among the apostles - and his subservient wife Junia. Rewrite accordingly.

There are other examples that show the cultural bias led to textual alterations. Paul's companion Silas in Acts 17 converted "...a large number of prominent women." Monks later changed this to "...a large number of wives of prominent men."
 
What is marriage but some form of public affirmation before family, friends and officialdom? It has usually followed pregnancy, with all its implications, and is hard to deny later.

Freudianlip says;
A contract for division of personal wealth, a mutual arrangement for clan expansion....(or more exceptionally in my case the production of a half goat half nun..less of the Immaculate more of the conception..as practice makes purrrfect)



The betrothal period generally weeds out the impotent or otherwise incompetent.

Freudianlip says'
Here in ireland it is very difficult to obtain a divorce and first must judicially be granted a legal separation then after several years both parties may petition for divorce which has in some cases not been granted until months of legal wrangling and Houdini like blame games have been completed.. Its much better to live together having leapt or stepped over the broom.



Do not engage; DJJ is a tar-baby AWOL from his own authored threads. Your instincts are correct in this case.
Thank you for for your wise advice...I guess I got him on this thread as part of the luck of the Irish syndrome...:blush:
 

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