Martial Arts Conundrum

[cow_cat]

So I've been attending TMA classes for about a year now. (Longfist Kung Fu, since you're wondering). As I've got to know the instructor and the style better, my teacher has started to teach me in the more... errm... spiritual side of Chinese MA. We're talking the full shebang here - chi, earth dragons, spirit foucs, and much more besides. Now, being the slightly inexperienced student that I am, I've just kept my mouth shut and gone along with it. However, I get the feeling that I should possibly speak up, especially as some of the other students are young kids (12-13 yo). My big problem is how to go about it.

I can possibly see the benefit of using the idea of 'chi' as a teaching aid. It sometimes makes my focus and fa jin (power issuing) 'feel' better. However, I know that this is because makes me think about improving body mechanics, rather than mystical power sources.

The instructor is very friendly, highly skilled in this and other arts, ethical, and all round a good teacher. This, and other factors makes me reluctant to just leave the class. Given that he has practiced for over 20 years, me standing up and saying 'You're wrong' probably won't go down too well. So, is there anyone with any advice or ideas as to what to do. Say something? Say nothing? Leave anonymous notes around the place? Any ideas gratefully received.

Note - Please don't let this thread descend into a discussion of whether chi is real (it isn't - live with it.), or the 'My style of fighting is better than your style of fighting' flame. I'm sure that there are other threads out there for these topics. Cheers.

 

[El Greco]

It's hard to find a good instructor and contrary to what many people think it is perfectly possible for an instructor to be a good teacher and believe in stupid things at the same time.

By speaking up you may be able to influence a couple of 12-13yo kids (which is doubtful) but then you will have left and that'll be the end of the story. If you stay and say nothing at least you will benefit from an art you like and a good instructor. Perhaps in time you will also find more subtle ways to influence other people.

So I'd say that for the time being it is in your best interest to say nothing, at least until you can find an equally good but more skeptical instructor.

 

[porch]

I'm sure that there are other threads out there for these topics.

I'd say that's an understatement.

I would leave. I understand that playing along with the 'chi' concept helps you in some ways. There is nothing wrong with visualization, and lots of athletes use it as a tool. However, you're not being asked to only 'visualize' chi, but to accept it as a real force. If part of the teachings at your school are based on a force that doesn't exist, I would guess that the techniques are less than optimal.

So, personally I would leave. You could give your reasons to your instructor, but I highly doubt it will change his ways. You could tell some of the other students why you are leaving. You could join bullshido.net and do a review of the school. Good luck.

 

[Bikewer]

The belief in these things is so deeply a part of traditional arts that it may be difficult to escape. It's part and parcel of most Japanese arts as well.

There are a variety of systems (loosely grouped under the heading now of "mixed martial arts") that will emphasize contemporary exercise physiology, training methods, and so forth.
Bruce Lee was a rather a pioneer in this area; if you read through his Tao of Jeet Kun Do (actually just an outline for a planned eleven-volume set!) you'll find a lot of information on training techniques and equipment, but nary a mention of "chi".

 

[thaiboxerken]

Tell him about the JREF challenge!

 

[Jekyll]

So, is there anyone with any advice or ideas as to what to do. Say something? Say nothing? Leave anonymous notes around the place? Any ideas gratefully received.

If you're concerned, you could just try having a chat with him after class, something like: "I'm having trouble believing this chi stuff, do you think it will effect my training?" rather than, "What is it with this earth dragon bollocks?" might be more appropriate.

I wouldn't worry about kids being exposed to the chi stuff, it's always best to get an infatuation with the supernatural out the way when you're younger. It inoculates you for later life .

Beyond this, Derren Brown talks about it was irritation at the stupidity of new age beliefs that snapped him out of being a fundamentalist Christian when he realised he wasn't any better. And I think exposure to different opposing viewpoints to your own early on should encourage scepticism, so it's all good really.

The only thing I'm worried about is statements like "It sometimes makes my ... fa jin (power issuing) 'feel' better." which makes it sound like you're not even hitting pads, much less each other. So, do you know the stuff you're learning works and how?

 

[Goshawk]

Well, here's a test: if your instructor turned out to be a Christian, and spent some time in every class period evangelizing about Jesus, would you feel impelled to correct him, or would you let it slide? Would you object, or would you be more like, "Meh, what a weirdo"?

My experience is that as you go through life, you're going to find yourself associating with/working alongside of a lot of people who do not necessarily hold the same religious beliefs that you do, and in every case you're going to have to decide whether to call them on it--IOW, pick a fight--or let it slide. Since as already has been pointed out, good martial arts instructors are hard to find, and since picking fights about religion invariably gets messy and never changes anyone's mind, personally I'd let it slide. If he was preaching about Jesus, it wouldn't hurt the kids, and it wouldn't be hurting you, and preaching about chi is the same, IMO.

 

[thaiboxerken]

Seriously, tell hiim about the JREF challenge and how y ou would like to see him take the Randi's money.

 

[ObscureReferenceMan]

I practice Aikido. Been doing so since 1987. Being a skeptic, I kind of "suspended my disbelief" for a while when I started. But as different subjects came up, I would talk about them with my sensei. Fortunately, he is the kind of instructor who doesn't force the "ki stuff" on you. In fact, I think he is a bit of a skeptic himself. Or maybe, he appreciates the "if it's real, show me" point of view.

There are a number of concepts in Aikido that are a little "out there; ki, extension, breath power, etc. In fact, the founder of Aikido (Morihei Ueshiba) had a number of, well, interesting beliefs, in addition to his ideas/theories about Aikido. But the best explanation I have heard about how to deal with some of the "woo-ish-ness" is that the Ueshiba was not familiar with concepts we understand a little more deeply today; leverage, torque, body mechanics, etc. And the best description he had was with more "colorful" language.

Don't get me wrong - I'm not calling Ueshiba ignorant or mocking him for being some kind of quaint, uneducated, misguided fellow. He described his martial art with the best words he had available. I even use a lot of the descriptions I was taught, but more as a "visualization exercise".

Jekyll has a good approach for bringing up the subject of your "lack of faith" about chi, dragons, etc. Be respectful, but admit your doubts/skepticism. And personally, I ask if I had to accept the "woo" in order to progress in the art. That would make it difficult for me to continue practice/study.

Good luck!

 

[thaiboxerken]

Ask your instructor why the superpowers don't work in MMA events.

 

[porch]

Well, here's a test: if your instructor turned out to be a Christian, and spent some time in every class period evangelizing about Jesus, would you feel impelled to correct him, or would you let it slide? Would you object, or would you be more like, "Meh, what a weirdo"?

My experience is that as you go through life, you're going to find yourself associating with/working alongside of a lot of people who do not necessarily hold the same religious beliefs that you do, and in every case you're going to have to decide whether to call them on it--IOW, pick a fight--or let it slide. Since as already has been pointed out, good martial arts instructors are hard to find, and since picking fights about religion invariably gets messy and never changes anyone's mind, personally I'd let it slide. If he was preaching about Jesus, it wouldn't hurt the kids, and it wouldn't be hurting you, and preaching about chi is the same, IMO.

The thing about this: His instructor is actually incorporating his supernatural beliefs into the instruction. If I had a Christian tennis instructor who occasionally mentioned god outside of the context of tennis, I wouldn't mind. If, however, I was trying to get more power out my backhand and he gave me advice about praying more or having more faith in Jesus, then I would call that subpar training.

 

[ChristineR]

I've been into ballet for years, and have occasionally been in exercise classes for dancers that sort of crossed into yoga and had me channeling colored light through my chakras.

My advice is that if you are getting the health/fitness/kung fu/entertainment benefits out of it, just ignore it, or just go ahead and focus on your inner dragons and don't worry about it.

The truth is that you can't go through life without running into this stuff in droves. You could refuse to watch Buffy and Star Trek because you know better. You could look down on Bach because he wrote religious music. You could refuse to read the Christian Science Monitor. Or you could just get on with life and learn kung fu.

If someone asks you about it, feel free to say "I don't believe in that stuff and it really doesn't work for me as a metaphor." Feel free to get into the more scientific stuff about exercise. The truth is that most traditional fitness pursuits have some bad science, and a lot of pointless ritual. Feel free to look for a teacher with a different approach. But if you like the teacher, if it's working for you, if you're working out for hours each week and aren't bored to tears, I'd say just relax and enjoy dipping your toes into an ancient and fascinating culture (which isn't even all woo).

 

[thaiboxerken]

I say stop training kung fu and do a martial art that's more suited to combat, like Muay Thai or BJJ.

 

[cow_cat]

Thanks all for the replies

The only thing I'm worried about is statements like "It sometimes makes my ... fa jin (power issuing) 'feel' better." which makes it sound like you're not even hitting pads, much less each other. So, do you know the stuff you're learning works and how?

We do all kinds of training from posture holding to drills, forms, pad work, wushu, mandar (slow sparring), sandar (full sparring), chin-na (joint locks), etc. So there's nothing to worry about there! Most times we do Fa Jin it is against pads, as the sound of a good and bad strike are easy to distinguish.

...picking fights about religion invariably gets messy and never changes anyone's mind...

Very true, this is probably the reason I've not said anything so far...

I wouldn't worry about kids being exposed to the chi stuff, it's always best to get an infatuation with the supernatural out the way when you're younger. It inoculates you for later life

I'm inclined to disagree. From my experience, things taught at that age tend to stay with you for a very long time. Get 'em young, and all that. This is the main reason I'd like to maybe say something...

I think anything I say will probably take the form of a question, something along the lines of "So how does chi actually work? What makes it?" etc. This, at least, may start a discussion. I may bring up the $1,000,000 and UFC tournaments as something to think about.

The truth is that you can't go through life without running into this stuff in droves. You could refuse to watch Buffy and Star Trek because you know better. You could look down on Bach because he wrote religious music. You could refuse to read the Christian Science Monitor. Or you could just get on with life and learn kung fu.

If someone asks you about it, feel free to say "I don't believe in that stuff and it really doesn't work for me as a metaphor." Feel free to get into the more scientific stuff about exercise. The truth is that most traditional fitness pursuits have some bad science, and a lot of pointless ritual. Feel free to look for a teacher with a different approach. But if you like the teacher, if it's working for you, if you're working out for hours each week and aren't bored to tears, I'd say just relax and enjoy dipping your toes into an ancient and fascinating culture (which isn't even all woo).

Thanks - that's good advice and well put. One of the things I am enjoying a lot is learning about chinese culture, something which I have no previous knowledge of. I've decided I don't want to stop practicing this form of MA, so anything I say and do won't prevent me from carrying on with classes (I hope!).

I say stop training kung fu and do a martial art that's more suited to combat, like Muay Thai or BJJ.

[DERAIL] This isn't going to happen for a number of reasons, not least is the fact that there isn't a muay thai school within 20 miles of me. At the moment, I walk to the class, and walk back via a number of friendly public houses. I think that this class teaches a decent amount of fighting applications and combat training. Frankly, muay thai has never appealed to me. There - that's enough of 'My techer can beat up your teacher'. Please - if you want to continue this discussion, I'll be happy to continue in another thread. Thanks.[/DERAIL]

 

[thaiboxerken]

Better to train real applications than to learn how to throw imaginary chi-fireballs.

 

[clarsct]

Not everyone takes martial arts to whoop ass on the world, Ken.


If that appeals, then cool. I'm all for it. But if you're in it for exercise and because you enjoy it, then that's ok, too.

Of course, if you're in for the latter reason, maybe you shouldn't use it in a fight.

I would say that MMA is probably more effective in actual fighting. But that isn't necessarily the only reason to go to a class....



As for the woo:
I would bring it up that you are skeptical of such beliefs, off to the side, and see what he says. I take kishido, which is a swordfighting form, and our instructor has us imagine a chain attached to the head and the ..well..'taint', one reaching into the sky and the other into the center of the earth. Is there and actual chain? No. Is there a mystical chain? No. It is simply a tool to help you envision the mechanics of what's happening in regards to balance and stance. It makes you aware of your center of gravity and how to manipulate it. That's all.
(It's one of the more basic things he teaches, but it is touched on in most of the classes.)


If he's just using it as a tool, then fine. If he's having you chant to strange gods in foriegn langauges..welll......maybe it's time to look about and see what else is out there.

 

[cow_cat]

As for the woo:
I would bring it up that you are skeptical of such beliefs, off to the side, and see what he says. I take kishido, which is a swordfighting form, and our instructor has us imagine a chain attached to the head and the ..well..'taint', one reaching into the sky and the other into the center of the earth. Is there and actual chain? No. Is there a mystical chain? No. It is simply a tool to help you envision the mechanics of what's happening in regards to balance and stance. It makes you aware of your center of gravity and how to manipulate it. That's all.
(It's one of the more basic things he teaches, but it is touched on in most of the classes.)


If he's just using it as a tool, then fine. If he's having you chant to strange gods in foriegn langauges..welll......maybe it's time to look about and see what else is out there.

That's the point. I use it as a tool, and I think it helps me. I don't know if my non-belief of this subject will become a problem. Don't worry - there's no chanting going on.

thaiboxerken - what part of 'in another thread' did I not make clear. I reviewed my posts, and I'm pretty sure the words were spelled correctly each time. I will preview this post, and make sure that the formatting, spelling and grammar are correct. I will also chack my English-to-American phrase book to make sure that there isn't a different word for the meaning I'm trying to convey. Past that, I don't know what to suggest...

 

[thaiboxerken]

You should do something valuable to martial arts training. Learning magic isn't it.

 

[porch]

Haha! TBK, you are as silvertongued as ever when it comes to helping people discern the truth.

Gong Sau!! Throwdown time! Take it to 'em, bullie!!.

 

[cgordon]

Soma, ignore Ken, he's got a one-track mind when it comes to MA discussions.

If you enjoy the class, and are serious about sticking with it, I'd suggest you have a heart-to-heart with the instructor.

And no, not all traditional martial arts are rooted in such fantasy. Amongst the Japanese classical arts (which don't include aikido or karate, by the way, they are 'gendai budo' derivative from and much younger that the old systems), many are associated with shrines or various deities, but even the old guys don't 'believe' that stuff. It's historical and cultural background for the arts, little more.