Split Thread Maori Creationism in Science lessons

RecoveringYuppy said:
There is nothing in that article identifying that as background information. And it is identified as being something to be tested on. And what do you think the word dominion means?
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Like I said, I think it's interesting background information, not more than that. I've already said that I think this curriculum goes too far in a few areas - what more do you want from me?
 
arthwollipot said:
I think that's interesting background information, but not more than that. And it's also not saying that the position or influence of these stars has direct affects on events or people here on Earth, as European-based astrology does, so I'll give it that.
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If "has dominion over" isn't a scientific claim, what is it doing in a science curriculum?

Even western astrology doesn't show up in western science curricula. So why this? What's the scientific-didactical value here? Do New Zealand schoolchildren really need to be taught irrelevant superstitions as part of their science curriculum?
 
arthwollipot said:
Like I said, I think it's interesting background information, not more than that. I've already said that I think this curriculum goes too far in a few areas - what more do you want from me?
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Just stop making excuses for the parts that go too far.
 
theprestige said:
Even western astrology doesn't show up in western science curricula.
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I don't know what is included in science curricula today, but it would be a pity if all references to astrology were scrubbed from it.

Is there any science in astrology?
Through my work as a data scientist, I frequently encounter all manner of dubious forecasting models, most of which, nevertheless, rely upon exceptionally sophisticated mathematics. How many of these so-called scientific models, I wondered, could even beat the predictions of superstitious astrology? It’s a question I became very curious to answer. But what, actually, is astrology?

In my new book, A Scheme of Heaven: Astrology and the Birth of Science, I set out to recast astrology as the ancient world’s most ambitious applied mathematics problem, a grand data-analysis enterprise sustained for centuries by some of history’s most brilliant minds from Ptolemy to al-Kindi to Kepler.

Just consider that for much of the last two thousand years, the word “mathematician” (mathematicus) simply meant an astrologer – there was no distinction....

Astrologers were the quants and data scientists of their day, and those of us who are enthusiastic about the promise of numerical data to unlock the secrets of ourselves and our world would do well simply to acknowledge that others have come this way before. Whether you’re intrigued by astrology, repelled by it, or anywhere in between, I contend that astrology remains tremendously relevant as a challenge to what we think we know and why we think we know it. Regardless of whether astrology has distilled any truth or not, what seems clear to me is that it has bottled up a certain type of magic, one that has proven time and again its ability to get us to stop and think about our connections to the wider universe.
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Roger Ramjets said:
That 'alternate ways of knowing' could have any place in science class, for any reason whatsoever. Especially if it's indigenous ancient knowledge (but we're not racist...).
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FTFY

Darat said:
What exactly is everyone so vehemently disagreeing about?
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Essentially it's about whether "alternative ways of knowing" (aka - "the wisdom of the ancients") should be taught in modern science classes or not.

If "alternative ways of knowing" were better than scientific ways of knowing, then they would become scientific ways of knowing. Belief in "alternative ways of knowing" is like belief in "alternative medicine". Should "alternative medicine" be taught in modern scientific medical classes? The "alternative" believers crowd will say "yes" of course.

Teachings in science classes should be taught for scientific reasons. There are other classes to teach non-science things.
 
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arthwollipot said:
All lives matter, right?
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I understand your lack of comprehension, because Maori and Indigenous Australians are two polar opposites. Maori were never hunted for bounty, Aussies never had a Treaty. Your indigenous people have historically been very badly treated, Maori have historically been legislatively advantaged.

arthwollipot said:
I think it's okay to focus some attention on communities that have historically been neglected or marginalised. You're better placed than I am - as an inhabitant of the West Island - to judge how much is too much, though.
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This piece from 1962 may help you out.

[IMGw=800]http://charman.co.nz/1962.jpg[/IMGw]
 
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ynot said:
Teachings ...
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Reminds me of the absurd claim, now considered factual, that Maori were punished for the crime of speaking Maori at school.

The truth is some kids were punished for using Maori to abuse teachers.
 
The Atheist said:
Reminds me of the absurd claim, now considered factual, that Maori were punished for the crime of speaking Maori at school.

The truth is some kids were punished for using Maori to abuse teachers.
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I first met Maori when I started school at age 5. I saw two Maori brothers in the playground and was fascinated by their brown skin. I overcame my shyness and started talking to them. The younger of the two said something in Maori and my fascination level went off the chart. I was really disappointed when the older brother quickly said something like “You’re not allowed to talk Maori at school, I’m telling Dad”. There was a definite threat of punishment implied. I don’t remember ever seeing them at school again. Not sure if they moved away or I lost interest in them and they faded into the mass of other kids.

Not a legal crime but perhaps a self-imposed tapu to avoid appearing too different from others?
 
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Roger Ramjets said:
Clever.

You have evidence that students only used Maori to abuse teachers, right?
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Any child would’ve been punished (back in the day) for abusing a teacher in any language the teacher didn’t understand, as well as the one(s) they did. In my day (50s - 60s) we got punished with a strap to the hand for every math answer we got wrong. The good old days.
 
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ynot said:
FTFY
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Thanks for nothing.

The Wisdom of the Ancients
...is a book written by Bacon in 1609, and published in Latin, in which he claims playfully to unveil the hidden meanings and teachings behind ancient Greek fables... He retells thirty-one ancient fables, suggesting that they contain hidden teachings on varied issues such as morality, philosophy, religion, civility, politics, science, and art.

This work, not having a strictly scientific nature as other better-known works, has been reputed among Bacon's literary works. However, two of the chapters, "Cupid; or the Atom", and "Proteus; or Matter" may be considered part of Bacon's scientific philosophy. Bacon describes in "Cupid" his vision of the nature of the atom and of matter itself.
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You dismiss 'The Wisdom of the Ancients', but our modern science that you so revere is built on it. And it has culture to thank for it. We wouldn't have science today if those early scientists didn't live in a culture conducive to developing their ideas.

ynot said:
Teachings in science classes should be taught for scientific reasons. There are other classes to teach non-science things.
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There it is again, the idea that science should exist in a rarefied atmosphere free of the 'taint' of culture. But that is impossible. Science is a part of our culture - a much smaller part than some scientists want to admit. And the more they try to distance science from culture, the more people get turned off to it - with disastrous results. In fact right now it is quite literally killing people. ~1,300 people are dying of Covid every day in the US because science couldn't get its message across.

You say only science should be taught in science classes and there are other classes to teach non-science things. But this is the wrong way to think about science. Science isn't just another subject, it's a way of thinking. There's science in music, art, literature, sport, and every other disipline. Experts in these fields know it, and everybody else would know it too if science wasn't so scared of intermingling with them. But it has its reasons:-

The Next Generation Science Standards
There is no doubt that science—and, therefore, science education—is central to the lives of all Americans. Never before has our world been so complex and science knowledge so critical to making sense of it all. When comprehending current events, choosing and using technology, or making informed decisions about one’s healthcare, science understanding is key. Science is also at the heart of the United States’ ability to continue to innovate, lead, and create the jobs of the future. All students—whether they become technicians in a hospital, workers in a high tech manufacturing facility, or Ph.D. researchers—must have a solid K–12 science education.
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And there you have it. What's the real goal of teaching science in schools? To produce more scientists and technicians to drive our consumer society. Not a word about the environment or cultural issues that are critical to our survival.
 
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ynot said:
Not a legal crime but perhaps a self-imposed tapu to avoid appearing too different from others?
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I'd say that's probably right.

Where I lived out in the backblocks of the central plateau, there were several houses where the grandparents couldn't speak English at all.
 
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