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Lourdes miracle question

joedonjj

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Mar 16, 2011
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I have researched Lourdes a bit and I find one of the claimed miracles especially interesting: I will copy and paste what I found:



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Mrs Marie BIRE LUCAS

Born on 8.10.1866 in Vendee (France)

Cured on 5.8.1908, in her 42nd. year. Miracle on 30.7.1910, by Mgr Clovis
Joseph Catteau, Bishop of Lucon.

Suddenly on 14.2.1908, Mrs BIRE showed some alarming signs: vomiting of
blood and incipient gangrene of her left forearm and hand, with
excruciating pain.

Three or four days afterwards, whereas the circulation in her arm had
returned to normal, other signs appeared: those of an intracranial
hypertension. Shortly after, she became comatose.

On coming out of it on the 25th. February, she discovered she was blind!
Her doctor called it "blindness from bilateral optic atrophy" due to the
cerebral incidents.

On the 5th. August 1908, after attending Mass at the Grotto, quite suddenly
her sight returned.

Examined by an oculist the same day at the M.B.V., it had to be admitted
that although she still showed signs of "retinal pallor of cerebral origin"
more marked on the right than on the left, she could read "the smallest
print in a newspaper" (Dr. Lainey of Rouen).

To summarize, anatomical signs persisted, consistent with a total loss of
vision. Nevertheless, vision had been restored!

In September 1908, several weeks later, three ophthalmologists made another
detailed examination, and noted: .. evidence of optic atrophy no longer
present, and the cure is complete,..

She was examined again in the following year by other doctors. In the
absence of any lesions, her cure was recognised as complete and lasting.

On 30.7.1910, Mgr C. Catteau, in his turn, acknowledging this sudden and
radical cure, proposed that it be considered as miraculous.

(This cure has been the subject of particular attention by dozens of
specialists since 1908. In every case it has been recognized as absolutely
inexplicable).

Here are my questions: How common ws misdiagnosis in the early 1900's? Is this cure truly inexplicable? What I find interesting is that none of the miracle cures of Lourdes ever involve someone born blind or deaf. Thank you for your responses.
 
How many amputees were cured at Lourdes?


You see a lot of abandoned crutches, but no prosthetic limbs.

Drill down through the interwebs about Saint Bernadette (for example) long enough, and you'll find that Bernadette wears a wax mask, because the black mold growing on her rotting face was disturbing and not quite in line with the idea of incorruptibility of saints.

ETA: Sorry for the unintentional derail
 
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a few cases have been certified as miraculous or rather as "medically inexplicable." Independent medical investigators have found otherwise, however, observing that virtually all of the diseases that were supposedly cured were those that were susceptible to psychosomatic influences and/or were known to show spontaneous remissions. Emphasizing the uncertain nature of Lourdes' power, French writer Anatole France visited the site in the late nineteenth century and said, surveying all the discarded crutches, "What, what, no wooden legs???"

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/joe_nickell/miracles.html
 
I jnow no burn victims, down syndrom, amputees, people born blind etc.? I guess what I am asking is does this sound like a case of misdiagnosis? Are there any opthamologists who could answer this?
 
I don't think you need an expert to say misdiagnosis happened. There were things not as well known then. There is also a lot more known about psychosematic symtoms now.
 
You don't think a misdiagnosis by an ophthalmologist in 1908 is a more likely explanation than a miracle ?

That said, how could a contemporary ophthalmologist show otherwise ?

Oh I am sure it is more likely a misdiagnosis. I am wondering if they could even test for optic atrophy properly in 1908. I guess a contemporary opthamolagist could say that diagnosis back then was highly flawed and more of a guess than anything due to their lack of resources
 
In my link scroll down to 'faith healing'. Apart from misdiagnois there is misreporting, and outright fraudulent reporting to add to the equation!
 
Drill down through the interwebs about Saint Bernadette (for example) long enough, and you'll find that Bernadette wears a wax mask, because the black mold growing on her rotting face was disturbing and not quite in line with the idea of incorruptibility of saints.

Catholic doctrine does not require that saints bodies be incorruptible. So the body rotting wouldn't be a problem. However it appears that Bernadette had undergone some kind of natural mumification (saponification perhaps) so decomposition does appear to have been significantly slowed.
 
Lourdes has a number of live Web cams where, during daylight hours the faithful can be seen passing by. The cameras can be accessed from the following url:

http://fr.lourdes-france.org/tv-lourdes/

You could log on and wait for the next miracle to appear before your very eyes!

Of course it could take another 103 years . . . or longer. :D
 
Oh I am sure it is more likely a misdiagnosis. I am wondering if they could even test for optic atrophy properly in 1908. I guess a contemporary opthamolagist could say that diagnosis back then was highly flawed and more of a guess than anything due to their lack of resources


So?
 
Catholic doctrine does not require that saints bodies be incorruptible. So the body rotting wouldn't be a problem. However it appears that Bernadette had undergone some kind of natural mumification (saponification perhaps) so decomposition does appear to have been significantly slowed.

I'm aware of the fact that catholic doctrine does not require that saints bodies be incorruptible, but is such alleged incorruptiblity not a factor in their beatification?

Does the RCC not affirm the incorruptilibily of St Bernadette?

Her particular example is not important to me except to point out that her body was taxidermied as it 'ripened'.

Does the RCC endorse the incorruptibilty of ANY saint?
 
Superstitious nonsense, promoted by the church to attract the desperate and the ignorant to donate money worship God.
 
I'm aware of the fact that catholic doctrine does not require that saints bodies be incorruptible, but is such alleged incorruptiblity not a factor in their beatification?

Not these days.

Does the RCC not affirm the incorruptilibily of St Bernadette?

Her particular example is not important to me except to point out that her body was taxidermied as it 'ripened'.

Does the RCC endorse the incorruptibilty of ANY saint?

Yes although it's moving away from that position. The core church hierarchy actualy tends to be pretty sceptical. Probably because they know competition when they see it.
 

I still dont think you understand what I am sayying. I am researching miracles for a school project. I am actually going to talk to a opthamologist on Monday and it should answer my question. i am wondering, was there even a way for them to make a proper diagnosis for optic atrophy in 1908? How much higher would the incidence of misdiagnosis be then?
 
How much higher would the incidence of misdiagnosis be then?

I don't think that's a question we can answer with any degree of precision, since the patients are long dead and (to the best of my knowledge) no/very very few medical records have survived. Without a way to compare diagnoses with reality, we can't determine what was properly diagnosed and what wasn't.
 
In my link scroll down to 'faith healing'. Apart from misdiagnois there is misreporting, and outright fraudulent reporting to add to the equation!

So would you say that by and large most "healings" at Lourdes are the result of misrepresenting? It is very hard to find any information on this subject other than form pro-catholic websites.

Also I notice many of the cures at Lourdes involve tuberculosis fistulae. Is this something that can heal on its own? Thank you
 
So would you say that by and large most "healings" at Lourdes are the result of misrepresenting?

The supposed healings are not attributable to any magic which happens at Lourdes. Each one can be attributed to one of these things: deliberate lying, spontaneous remission, initial misdiagnosis (ie the supposed illness never existed), or placebo.
Perhaps I have missed some, but definitely no magic.
 

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