Looks Like Indigenous People Own the Moon

[The Atheist]

An enterprising company decided to hop on the idea started by Eugene Shoemaker and send ashes of bereaved to the moon.

Pretty harmless fun, you'd think. What's a little more dust on the moon?

But no, someone had to cry about it, and in this case, it's the Navajo people.

The flight will go ahead anyway, but Navajo are determined to stop further flights. Of course, Maori have their back:

‘Ignorant and arrogant’: Maramataka expert Heeni Hoterene wants Māori to oppose moon burials

Personally, I'd have thought ignorant and arrogant would describe a neolithic people telling a technologically-advanced nation what they can and can't do 300,000 km above the earth. These people had no notion of what the moon is, and it decidedly does not have any life force or mauri. It's a big rock.

Still, it's all good for humour value as the Maori chick says:

“As indigenous people and as Māori, we must support Navajo ... and we need to look at actually withdrawing our support to Nasa,” Hoterene told Te Ao News.

By all means withdraw your support, sweetie - I'm sure NASA will be suitably chastised.

Looks like Monsieur Musk might have to schedule some moon visits.

 

[theprestige]

What do they want NASA to do? Boycott launches and launch service providers that include these payloads?

Why ashes? There's tons of stuff getting put on the moon these days. Why is this suddenly a problem now? Is it because they're not aware of all the astronaut poop already on the moon?

 

[JoeMorgue]

I'm gonna say the same thing I said when Hawaii didn't want to put a telescope on a mountain because the mountain was sacred.

White guilt is not enough for me to side with religion in a battle between religion and science (soft, corporate science with a bunch of fluff projects attached yes I'm aware.)

"You can't use those stem cells because it makes the baby jesus cry" isn't better when it comes from brown people.

 

[TragicMonkey]

If anyone owns the moon surely it's the Moonies.

 

[theprestige]

I'm gonna say the same thing I said when Hawaii didn't want to put a telescope on a mountain because the mountain was sacred.

White guilt is not enough for me to side with religion in a battle between religion and science (soft, corporate science with a bunch of fluff projects attached yes I'm aware.)

"You can't use those stem cells because it makes the baby jesus cry" isn't better when it comes from brown people.

I'm with you, except that commercial delivery of funerary ashes to the moon doesn't seem like it has any kind of science component.

*Maybe* that's a valid complaint? Don't use the moon for mere commercial purposes? Don't make a business of selling funerary access to the moon to a small subset of religions, without taking into account and respecting the many, many religions on Earth that are not included in your rites and may not appreciate you using the moon for them?

ETA: Really, though, a complaint of that nature seems like it raises more questions than it answers.

"You can't live on that island, because we can get to that island from this one, and we have religious traditions about it."

"You can't live on the far side of that mountain, because we've seen it and decided it's holy ground to us."

Pretty soon nobody can bury anyone anywhere, or pray to anything, because technically the entire planet is already within the Navaho cosmos. Unless the Navaho are just claiming religious dominion over the things they can see from the rez. They can see the moon, therefore the moon is theirs. Which still raises questions. The US government has made it abundantly clear to the Navaho that nothing off the rez is theirs anymore, not even their old territories and domains. That's all American turf now. Can you walk to the edge of the reservation, look across the line into America, and say, "you can't bury people there, I can see it so therefore it's sacred to me"? Of course not. Can't do it for the moon, then, either.

 

[Olmstead]

Crazy vs. crazy, but at least the Navajo aren't selling a sentimental scam (possibly with environmental implications).

 

[theprestige]

Funerary rites and rituals aren't a sentimental scam. In fact, I'm pretty sure that unless there's actual fraud involved, nothing sold as a sentimental value can even be a scam at all.

And I have no idea what environmental implications there could possibly be, about putting funeral ashes on a lifeless rock in space.

 

[bruto]

I withhold judgment on the actual issue of sending remains to the moon, which sounds pretty silly. But isn't the moon a planet? How does one establish ownership of a planet, and if it were somehow determined that some tribe owns the moon, couldn't the same argument be used to claim that they own the earth?

p.s. I think theprestige sort of said that already.

 

[JoeMorgue]

But isn't the moon a planet? How does one establish ownership of a planet, and if it were somehow determined that some tribe owns the moon, couldn't the same argument be used to claim that they own the earth?

They aren't claiming they own it, they are claiming it's sacred.

 

[Orphia Nay]

The Navajo think "it is a concern to have human remains “constantly floating around the earth as we continue to exist.”"

Um, nobody tell them about cemeteries.

 

[Olmstead]

Funerary rites and rituals aren't a sentimental scam. In fact, I'm pretty sure that unless there's actual fraud involved, nothing sold as a sentimental value can even be a scam at all.

I kind of feel like they are. They are drenched in centuries of religious manipulation, and Celestis is willingly exploiting the results of that manipulation for profit (as churches have done before), ascribing undue significance to some arbitrary piles of dust.

Okay, I'm reaching a bit.

And I have no idea what environmental implications there could possibly be, about putting funeral ashes on a lifeless rock in space.

Last time I checked, putting anything into space is prohibitively energy intensive, and every ounce matters.

 

[shemp]

I think the Earth is sacred, and I demand that you all leave at once!

 

[TragicMonkey]

I think we should send human remains everywhere we can reach. That way even if the Earth gets wrecked there will still be human biological samples for future aliens to find, and possibly resurrect. In a billion years there might be a new race of humans in alien zoos! Or possibly the aliens will have conquered the spirit dimension and can resurrect us as ghosts. I'm not saying it's likely, but since we're sending probes and stuff all over space we may as well stick some corpses in them just in case. Eggs in one basket sort of thing. In the balance between some present people's feelings and potential future of the species as deathconquering ghost clones the choice seems obvious.

 

[theprestige]

They aren't claiming they own it, they are claiming it's sacred.

"Proprietary religious interest" sure sounds a lot like ownership to me.

Anyway, my callous, politically-incorrect old ass is reminded of the religious dispute in the Stephen King novel, Thinner.

In brief, a gypsy shaman curses a mob lawyer. It's a vicious curse, and the mob lawyer soon ends up at the gypsy camp, begging to have the curse lifted. The shaman says, in essence, "screw you, white man from town, I'm never lifting this curse from you."

"White man from town" being the gypsy's epithet for, well, white men.

Anyway, the mob lawyer doesn't leave it at that. He comes back with, "screw you, too, then. You curse me? I curse you! I curse you with the curse of the white man from town!" Then he goes back to his mob client and calls in a favor.

Soon enough, mob goons show up at the gypsy camp, wreck some stuff, kill a couple people. It's not a magic curse, but the curse of the white man from town is an effective curse. The gypsy relents*.

So if this is to be a supernatural battle, or a religious contest, let the Navaho and the Maori pit their best magic against the best magic of the white man from town, and see whose magic actually gives them the moon.

---
*Not all the way, though. It's a Stephen King story, so there's still bad ends for everyone.

 

[Mike!]

What do they want NASA to do? Boycott launches and launch service providers that include these payloads?

Why ashes? There's tons of stuff getting put on the moon these days. Why is this suddenly a problem now? Is it because they're not aware of all the astronaut poop already on the moon?

Please tell me this is true, that they left their **** behind.

 

[theprestige]

Please tell me this is true, that they left their **** behind.

They left behind everything except what they needed to survive the trip home, and their payload. Human waste, outer suits, everything.

 

[Olmstead]

Please tell me this is true, that they left their **** behind.

Retrieving and analysing the poop is considered to be an important potential objective for future missions.

 

[BowlOfRed]

I kind of feel like they are. They are drenched in centuries of religious manipulation, and Celestis is willingly exploiting the results of that manipulation for profit (as churches have done before), ascribing undue significance to some arbitrary piles of dust.

It's not something I want, and I would have thought it was close to the "stupid" end of things for someone to do. But... I did recently hear someone from Celestis talk about how they communicate with families and with the launch operators. Assuming they're that straight with the families when they're doing the sale, I have no concerns.

If uncle Bob thought it was a cool idea for his ashes to ride on a rocket and aunt Sally has the funds and agreed, then I'm all for having a memorial service around the launch to talk about how much Bob thought space and rockets were cool.

 

[Mike!]

I withhold judgment on the actual issue of sending remains to the moon, which sounds pretty silly. But isn't the moon a planet? How does one establish ownership of a planet, and if it were somehow determined that some tribe owns the moon, couldn't the same argument be used to claim that they own the earth?

p.s. I think theprestige sort of said that already.

I have to step in and point out, the moon is not a planet, its a moon. It's not named the moon, but we mostly call it that, I don't know why, because of tradition or something I'm sure someone far better informed than me will be along shortly to correct, but hey, isn't that what we love about this place?
All that said, I'm pretty sure it's name is, Luna, Luna the Moon, and it belongs to the Earth, as long as it remains in orbit.
So since it's the only one we have, I guess you could say, it belongs to ALL of us, and I say, we put it to a vote.
Dead things can be sent to the moon, where all indications are, they will remain dead, or not?
I mean not sent to the moon, not if they'll remain dead or not, that's pretty much a given already.

 

[theprestige]

Last time I checked, putting anything into space is prohibitively energy intensive, and every ounce matters.

Ah, I see what you're saying.