List of Early Writers Who Could Have Mentioned Jesus Christ

[Kapyong]

Greetings all

Remsberg made a list years ago, of early writers who could have mentioned Jesus Christ, yet did not - but the list was bare of details like dates and subjects. It's been frequently repeated and updated, (I even made a poor earlier attempt at it myself,) and recently Michael Paulkovich in his book No Meek Messiah listed 126 such writers - but still poorly classified.

So I have researched Paulkovich's list, and classified the writings, and sorted them by date, with some explanations concerning relevance - to give a much better view of this evidence, and hereby present the results for discussion and debate.

(To the mods : this is a large group of posts, but I am publishing it here for the first time, it's not copied from my web-page, or any web-page. I hope that with contributions from members here we can build a definitive list.)

To readers : please don't post any replies until I have finished my several initial posts OK ? I want to get the layout all nice and proper, like


Why Would They Mention Jesus ?

Many of these books are relevant or local or contemporary, and many authors did mention people and events from far away (e.g. Pausanias on Palestinian Jew 'Sabbe'), or digress into a different subjects (e.g. Josephus), or mention topics that could clearly connect to Jesus Christ (e.g. Petronius' crucifixion.)

I have rated each work for characteristics which would increase the likelyhood of a mention of Jesus Christ :

• the Subject is relevant (S or s)
• the book is Contemporary (C or c)
• the work is Local (L or l)
• the book is Big with lots of names etc. (B or b)
• the book is a Christian work (X)

Kapyong

 

[Kapyong]

Writers Contemporary with Jesus

Philo (20 BCE - 50 CE) = SClB
Philo Judaeus wrote very many books about Jewish religion and history.

• Philo was contemporary with Jesus and Paul,
• he visited Jerusalem and had family there,
• he developed the concept of the Logos and the Holy Spirit,
• he was considered a Christian by some later Christians,
• he wrote a great deal about related times and peoples and issues.

Seneca The Younger (4 BCE - 65 CE) = sCB
Lucius Annaeus Seneca wrote many philosophic (Stoic) and satirical books and letters (and Tragedies) in Rome. He wrote a great deal on many subjects and mentioned many people. He was a Stoic, a school of thought considered sympathetic to Christian teachings. He wrote a large work On Superstition between 40 and 62 CE that covered all the sects and cults of Rome. In fact, early Christians seemed to have expected him to discuss Christianity - they forged letters between him and Paul. How else to explain these forgeries, except as Christian responses to a surprising void in Seneca's writings ?

Pliny The Elder (23 - 79) = SCB
Gaius Plinius Secundus wrote a large Natural History in Rome c.70CE following on from Bassus (from 31 CE) Pliny wrote a great deal - his Natural History mentions hundreds of people, major & minor - writers, leaders, poets, artists - often with as much reason as mentioning Jesus. (Of course like many other writers he talks about astronomy too, but never mentions the Star of Bethlehem or the darkness.) It is quite likely for this prolific writer to have mentioned Jesus or the Gospels events - if they had happened.

Petronius (c. 27 - 66) = CB
Gaius Petronius Arbiter or Titus Petronius wrote a large novel in Rome (a bawdy drama) the Satyricon c.60. Petronius mentions all sorts of people and events in this large work, including :

• a crucifixion !
• a scene where guards are posted to stop a corpse being stolen,
• a tomb scene of someone mistaking a person for a supernatural vision,
• gods such as Bacchus and Ceres,
• writers such as Sophocles and Euripides and Epicurus,
• books such as the Iliad,
• Romans such as Cato and Pompey,
• people such as Hannibal, and the Governor of Ephesus,
• female charioteers, slaves, merchants, Arabs, lawyers
• baths, shipwrecks, meals...

This large work, cover many topics, including topics related to the Jesus e.g. a crucifixion, and it was written just as Peter and Paul had come to Rome, allegedly. It could easily have mentioned Jesus.

Lucius Junius Moderatus Columella (4 - c.70) = Cb
Columella wrote several works in Rome, some survives, e.g. his large book on agriculture Res rustica.

Kapyong

 

[Kapyong]

Mid 1st C. (34 - 66)

Persius (34 - 62) = scb
Aulus Persius Flaccus wrote six fairly long satires in Rome in the mid 1st century, of a rather philosophic nature.

Lucan (39 - 65) = cB
Marcus Annaeus Lucanus wrote the Pharsalia (Civil War) in Rome in mid 1st century. In this large poem he mentions some events from later times, and he covers many different issues and people in passing. He:

• mentions an event from 56CE,
• refers to places as far afield as Sicily and Kent,
• refered to Stoic religious beliefs about the end of the world,
• refers to many books and myths and persons and events not part of the main story.

Pomponius Mela (c.43) = c
He wrote a geography which covered the region.

Cornutus (c.60) = sc
Lucius Annaeus Cornutus wrote a variety of works in Rome - satires, philosophy, mythology. Some survive.

Hero of Alexandria (c.10 - c.70) = ClB
Hero of Alexandria wrote many technical works, including astronomy in mid 1st C.

Quintus Curtus Rufus (mid 1st C.) = CB
Roman Rufus wrote a large history of Alexander, most still extant.

Scribonius Largus (mid 1st C.) = Cb
Wrote on medicine in Rome, much survives.

Rufus of Ephesus (mid 1st C.) = CLB
He wrote many works, mostly on medicine, much survives.

Cleopatra the Physician (mid 1st C.) = Cl
Some of her work survives.

Asconius Pedianus (mid 1st C.) = C
A Roman who wrote a variety of books, some survives.


Kapyong

 

[Kapyong]

Late 1st C. (67 - 99)

Plutarch (c. 46 CE - 120 CE) = ScB
Plutarch of Chaeronea wrote many works on history and philosophy in Rome and Boetia in about 90-120.

• Plutarch wrote about influential Roman figures, including some contemporary to Jesus,
• Plutarch wrote on Oracles (prophesies),
• Plutarch wrote on moral issues,
• Plutarch wrote on spiritual and religious issues.

Justus of Tiberias (late 1st C.) = ScL
Justus of Tiberias wrote a History of Jewish Leaders in Galilee in late 1st century. Photius read Justus in the 8th century and noted that he did not mention anything: "He (Justus of Tiberias) makes not one mention of Jesus, of what happened to him, or of the wonderful works that he did."

Juvenal (late 1st C. - early 2nd C.) = scb
Decimus Junius Juvenalis wrote sixteen satires in Rome in early 2nd century without mentioning Jesus or Christians, even though later Roman satirists like Lucian did ridicule Christians (as gullible, easily lead fools) in mid 2nd century.

Erotianus (1st C.) = c
A Greek grammarian and/or physician, some of his work survives.

Aristocles (1st C.) = sc
Aristocles of Messene wrote On Philosophy, late 1st century.

Musonius Rufus (1st C.) = sc
C. Musonius Rufus' views on Stoic philosophy in Rome were collected in mid 1st century, some survive.

Nicomachus of Gerasa (1st C.) = clb
He wrote several books, mostly mathematics, much survives.

Soranus of Ephesus (1st C.) = cl
Soranus was a physician, some of his work survives.

Pedanius Dioscorides (mid 1st C.) = clb
Wrote a large book on herbs and medicine in Turkey, still extant.

Nicarchus (1st C.) = cl
Nicarchus wrote poems in Alexandria, 1st C.

Gaius Valerius Flaccus (late 1st C.) = c
A poet in Rome c.90, some of his work remains.

Silius Italicus (1st C.) = cB
A Roman who wrote a large epic poem about the Punic Wars which survives.

Damis (mid 1st C. - early 2nd C.) = Sclb
Damis apparently wrote most of what we know about Apollonius of Tyana who was a philosopher and mystic exactly contemporary with Jesus, and who was rather similar to Jesus - enough for some authors to argue they were one and the same person. If Damis / Apollonius had known of Jesus, he could have easily have been mentioned as a competitor.

Martial (40 - c.103) = scB
Marcus Valerius Martialus wrote satires in Rome in late 1st century. He wrote a large body of poems about all sorts of things. He mentions many people, places, stories and issues - major and minor, within and without Rome, such as :

• Stoic suffering of discomfort and death,
• virgin's blood,
• Roman funerary practices,
• the way accused men look in court,
• Roman soldiers mocking their leaders,
• anointing the body with oil,
• Molorchus the good shepherd,
• Tutilius a minor rhetorician, Nestor the wise,
• the (ugly) Temple of Jupiter,

Quintilian (c.35 - c.100) = scb
Marcus Fabius Quintilianus, wrote the Education of an Orator in Rome in late 1st century. One of the things Jesus was allegedly noted for was his public speeches - e.g. the Sermon on the Mount, which supposedly drew and influenced large crowds.

Aretaeus of Cappadocia (1st C.) = cl
Aretaeus was a first century physician and author. Some of his work survives.

Statius the Younger (c.45 - c.96) = cB
Publius Papinius Statius wrote numerous minor and epic poems (e.g. Ode to Sleep and the Thebaid) in Rome in late 1st century.

Sextus Julius Frontinus (late 1st C.) = c
Senator Frontinus wrote various books in Rome, a few survive.

Phaedrus (1st C.) = scb
Wrote fables, many survive.

Aelius Theon (1st C.) = sclb
Aelius Theon was an Alexandrian sophist and author of a collection of preliminary exercises (progymnasmata) for the training of orators.

Pliny the Younger (61 - c.113) = sclB
Gaius Plinius Caecilius Secundus was a prolific Roman author on many subjects.


Kapyong

 

[Kapyong]

Early 2nd C. (100 - 133)

Dio Chrysostom (c.40 - c.120) = cB
Dio Chrysostom (aka Cocceianus Dio, or Dion Prusa) wrote many works and gave many speeches in various Roman and Greek centres in late 1st century to early 2nd century, of which 80 survive e.g. the Euboicus.

Epictetus (55 - 135) = ScB
Epictetus is known for several books of Stoic religious and philosophic discourses in the early 2nd century. One of his disciples was Arrian, and thanks to him much of Epictetus' works are extant. Epictetus DID apparently mention "the Galileans", which could be a reference to the early Christians, or the revolt under Judas the Galilean in early 1st century. Either way, this shows quite clearly that Epictetus could refer to a figure such as Jesus.

Philippus of Thessalonica (early 2nd C.) = b
He wrote a large number of Roman epigrams.

Aspasius (early 2nd C.) = sb
Aspasius wrote on philosophy. Some of his work survives.

Demonax (early 2nd C.) = B
A poet of Athens, much of his work survives.

Suetonius (69 - 140) = cB
Suetonius wrote about first century Romans, much survives. His reference to 'Chrestus' does not seem to mean Jesus Christ.

Marcus Antonius Polemon (early 2nd C.) = slb
He wrote on philosophy in Phrygia, some survives.

Arrian (c.86 - 160) = B
Arrian wrote a History of Alexander in Athens c.120. The subject is not related, but Arrian wrote a very large work which mentioned hundreds of people, some not from Alexander's time.

Florus (1st C. - 2nd C.) = sB
Lucius Annaeus Florus wrote an Epitome of Roman History.

Marcellus Sidetes (2nd C.) = lB
He wrote a large medical poem in Pamphylia, some survives.

Theon Smyrna (c.100) = slb
Theon of Smyrna wrote on astronomy/philosophy in early 2nd century.

Menelaus of Alexandria (early 2nd C.) = l
Wrote on geography and maths, a little survives.

Ptolemy (early 2nd C.) = slB
Claudius Ptolemaeus wrote many works in Alexandria, and much survives.


Kapyong

 

[Kapyong]

Mid 2nd C. (134 - 166)

Mathetes c.140 = SbX
Mathetes, a Christian author, wrote a book To Diognetus which has plenty to say about the Word, the Son of God, but no mention they had anything to do with a Jesus Christ, who is never even mentioned.

Minucius Felix c.150 = SBX
Minucius Felix wrote a book Octavius which defends Christian beliefs, but does not mention Jesus even once.

Tatian c.160 = SBX
Just before his mentor Justin Martyr died in c.163, Tatian wrote an Address to the Greeks which describes Christian beliefs in terms of the Logos, the first-born Son of God - without any mention of Jesus.

Athenagoras c.170 = SBX
Athenagoras wrote a Plea For the Christians, which says much about the Logos, the Son of God, but nothing of Jesus Christ. Athenagoras even wrote a lengthy work On the Resurrection in which he discusses Christian beliefs about resurrection - without ever once mentioning Jesus Christ or his resurrection.

Pausanias (mid 2nd C.) = B
Pausanias wrote the massive Guide to Greece in mid 2nd century. Pausanias' work is vast and the index covers over 70 pages of small print, I estimate a couple of thousand names are mentioned - a large number of minor figues from within and without Greece. He even mentions a Jewish prophetess - a figure so minor she is essentially unknown : "Then later than Demo there was a prophetic woman reared among the Jews beyond Palestine; her name was Sabbe." Phokis, Book X, 12, [5] Pausanias also mentions the Jewish rebellion under Hadrian.

Fronto (c.100 - 170) = s
Marcus Cornelius Fronto of Rome wrote several letters in mid 2nd century. According to Minucius Felix, he scandalised rites practiced by Roman Christians - so he could easily have mentioned Jesus.

Aelius Aristides (117 - 181) = sB
Aelius Aristides the mid 2nd century Greek Orator spoke and wrote a History of Rome and other subjects - he seems to refer to the Christians as "impious men from Palestine" (Orations 46.2)

Hierocles (2nd C.) = sl
Hierocles of Alexandria wrote on Stoic philosophy in 2nd century.

Appian (c.95 - c.165) = B
Appian wrote a large Roman History (from the Gracchi to Caesar) in mid 2nd century. It's not particularly likely that this specific writer would mention Jesus. But, he wrote a large work which mentions hundreds of people. Appian does mention some issues of his own day (mid 2nd century), e.g. a decision by Hadrian.

Albinus (c.150) = sl
Albinus taught on (neo-)Platonism in mid 2nd century at Smyrna, a little survives.

Apollodorus (mid 2nd C.) = lB
(Pseudo) Apollodorus compiled a large Mythology in mid 2nd century, he died in Pergamon

Hephaestion (2nd C.) = lb
Hephaestion of Alexandria wrote several surviving works on poetry in mid 2nd century.

Maximus of Tyre (2nd C.) = sLB
Massius Maximus Tyrius, a Greek NeoPlatonic philosopher, wrote many works in mid 2nd century.

Lucius Apuleius (c.125 - c.180) = B
Lucius Apuleius wrote the Metamorphoses in mid-late 2nd C. (the Golden Ass or Transformations of Lucius) and other spiritual, historical, and philosophic works - several survive.

Aulus Gellius (c.125 - c.180) = B
Aulus Gellius wrote Attic Nights (Nights in Athens) in mid-late 2nd C., a large compendium of many topics and which mentioned many people.


Kapyong

 

[Kapyong]

Late 2nd C. (167 - 199)

Marcus Aurelius (c.112 - 180) = sB
Marcus Aelius Aurelius Antoninus wrote the Stoic Meditations c.167 - he (apparently) refers once to the Christians in XI, 3 -

' What a soul that is which is ready, if at any moment it must be separated from the body, and ready either to be extinguished or dispersed or continue to exist; but so that this readiness comes from a man's own judgement, not from mere obstinacy, as with the Christians, but considerately and with dignity and in a way to persuade another, without tragic show. '​

Sextus Empiricus (c.160 - 210) = b
Sextus Empiricus wrote Outlines of Scepticism in late 2nd century.


Kapyong

 

[Kapyong]

Lost Works Which Apparently Did Not Mention Jesus

Atilicinus (1st C.)
A Roman jurist.

Statius the Elder ( - c.83)
Publius Papirius Statius wrote several works.

Menodotus of Nicomedia (early 2nd C.)
A writer mentioned by Galen.

Favorinus (early 2nd C.)
Favorinus wrote many works, only fragments survive.

Pompeius Saturninus (early 2nd C.)
A historian and a poet.

Archigenes (1st - 2nd C.)
A physician who wrote influential works, e.g. on the pulse.

Criton of Heraclea (early 2nd C.)
Wrote several books but nothing survives.

Titus Aristo (early 2nd C.)
A writer mentioned by Pliny, his works are lost.

Onasandros (1st C.)
A philosopher, little of his work survives.

Moderatus of Gades (1st C.)
Wrote about Pythagoras, little survives.

Aelius Cornelius Celsus (1st C.)
He wrote many works in Rome.

Sulpicia (late 1st C.)
Wrote love poems, almost all lost.

Damocrates (1st C.)
Servilius Damocrates wrote several books.

Alexander of Aegae (1st C.)
Alexander was a philosopher in Rome during the 1st C.

Verginius Flavus (mid 1st C.)
A Roman writer, nothing survives.

Ammonius of Athens (1st C.)
The mentor of Plutarch, who said he wrote about religion and sacred rites.

Gnaeus Domitius Afer (mid 1st C.)
Afer wrote in the 1st century - little survives.

Pamphila (c.60)
Pamphila of Epidaurus write a 33 volume Historical Notes up to her time of c.60.

Gnaeus Cornelius Lentulus Gaetulicus (early 1st C.)
He wrote poems, little survives.

Pomponius Secundus (1st C.)
He wrote many tragedies, very little survives.

Chaeremon of Alexandria (mid 1st C.)
He wrote several works, little survives.

Saleius Bassus (late 1st C.)
Bassus was a poet.

Bassus ( - c.60)
Aufidius Bassus wrote a history up to at least the year 31.

Julia Agrippina (c.59)
Julia Agrippina wrote her memoirs, which does not survive.

Cluvius Rufus (mid 1st C.)
Cluvius Rufus wrote a detailed history from the year 37 until 69.

Nonianus (2 BCE - 59 CE)
Marcus Servilius Nonianus wrote a history of the 1st century up to at least the year 41.


Kapyong

 

[Kapyong]

Gday all

Thanks for your patience, everyone
That is my posts complete, feel free to discuss now ...

Note that I list fewer than Paulkovich. Some of his names were from 1st C. BCE not CE, and some were people who weren't really writers - such as Roman nobles who may have written a few letters.

I have also chosen to include four Christian books - because of their particular and peculiar silence - explaining Christianity WITHOUT mentioning Jesus Christ. I think they deserve to be in a list like this.


Kapyong

 

[Brainache]

OK. I haven't read all of your list, but I will dip my oar into this thread by posting the usual reply to lists such as this:

- We don't have copies of everything these people wrote. They may have mentioned Jesus in an unflattering way and consequently later Christians deleted such references.

- It is highly possible that Jesus was nowhere near as popular or important as later Christian texts say he was. Therefore there is no reason why these people should mention him.

- Even the gospels portray Jesus' tenure as a religious teacher as brief. He had a dozen companions, made a few speeches, did a bit of faith healing, caused a stir in the temple and got nailed up by the Romans. I'm pretty sure there were many people who did similar things about whom we know nothing at all. Josephus names many such "false Prophets" any one of whom might have been the focus of a new form of Judaism, it's just an accident of history that the one we are debating today was named "Jesus".

- As I said, I didn't read your whole list, but what do you think of the idea that the "Teacher of Righteousness" mentioned in the Dead Sea Scrolls might have something to do with this question?

It is to this that allusion is also made in the statement: 'I will exile Sikkuth your king and Kiyyun your image, the star of your God. . . beyond Damascus' [cf. Amos 5.26).

The expression 'Sikkuth your king' refers to the Books of the Law, [for the word 'Sikkuth' is to be explained from the like-sounding sukkah, 'tabernacle')** as in the passage of Scripture which says: 'I will raise up the fallen sukkah [tabernacle] of David' [Amos 9.11].

The expression 'king' denotes the congregation;28 and the expression 'Kiyyun your image' refers to the books of the prophets29 whose words the House of Israel has de-spised.80

As for the 'star', that refers to every such interpreter of the Law as indeed repairs to 'Damascus',31 even as it is written: 'There shall step forth a star out of Jacob, and a sceptre shall rise out of Israel' [Num. 24.17].82 The 'sceptre', it may be added, is the leader of the community, for in the exercise of his office he shall 'batter all the sons of pride',88 as the Scripture says...

All those that entered into the new covenant in 'the land of Damascus' but subsequently relapsed and played false and turned away from the well of living waters shall not be reckoned as of the communion of the people nor inscribed in the roster of it throughout the period from the time the teacher of the community is gathered to his rest until that in which the lay and the priestly messiah [anointed] assume their office...

About forty years will elapse from the death of the teacher of the community until all the men who take up arms and relapse in the company of the Man of Falsehood are brought to an end.41 At that time, the wrath of God will be kindled against Israel, and that will ensue which is described by the prophet when he says: 'No king shall there be nor priest nor judge nor any that reproves aright' [cf. Hos. 3.4]...

Howbeit, all that hold fast to these enactment's, going and coming in accordance with the Law; that hearken to the voice of the Teacher; that make confession before God, saying: Just and truthful are Thy judgments against us, for we have done wickedly, both we and our fathers, in that we have gone contrary to the statutes of the Covenant; all who raise not their hands against His holy statutes or His righteous judgments or His truthful ordinances; all who learn the lessons of the former judgments wherewith the men of the community were adjudged in time past; all who give ear to him who imparts the true interpretation of the Law and who do not controvert the right ordinances when they hear them-all of these shall rejoice and their hearts shall be strong, and they shall prevail over all that dwell in the world. And God will accept their atonement, and because they took refuge in His holy name they shall indeed see salvation at His hand...

http://www.essene.com/History&Essenes/cd.htm

These scrolls avoided revision, editing and chains of translation errors by spending 2000 years in caves. No one tried to fit them into a Greco-Roman world view or make them acceptable to non-Jewish followers.

I think if Jesus and his brother James actually existed, this is the kind of thing they would have been preaching. If this is what they preached, anyone trying to spread a Greco-Roman version would have to make big changes to it if he wanted to make a success of it. Those changes would have to be exactly the ones we see Paul preaching; the ones that cause so much conflict between Paul and James.

...

 

[Kapyong]

Gday Brainache and all

- We don't have copies of everything these people wrote. They may have mentioned Jesus in an unflattering way and consequently later Christians deleted such references.

Yes, we all know that
Why did you bring it up ?
Because they could just have easily have mentioned Jesus was a myth too.
Let's discuss the evidence we HAVE, not what COULD exist, OK ?

- It is highly possible that Jesus was nowhere near as popular or important as later Christian texts say he was. Therefore there is no reason why these people should mention him.

Sorry Brainache, that argument is clearly wrong Many people who were NOT popular or important WERE mentioned by many of these writers, such as the interesting example from Pausanias :

"Then later than Demo there was a prophetic woman reared among the Jews beyond Palestine; her name was Sabbe." Phokis, Book X, 12, [5] ​

There is Pausanias mentioning a minor Jew nobody from Palestine even. Many of these authors DO mention minor nobodies.

Furthermore, as I mentioned in the OP, there ARE reasons why he might have been mentioned :

• the Subject is relevant (S or s)
• the book is Contemporary (C or c)
• the work is Local (L or l)
• the book is Big with lots of names etc. (B or b)
• the book is a Christian work (X)

Josephus names many such "false Prophets" any one of whom might have been the focus of a new form of Judaism, it's just an accident of history that the one we are debating today was named "Jesus".

Thanks for agreeing with me
Josephus mentions many minor nobodies, false Prophets - just like Jesus.

- As I said, I didn't read your whole list, but what do you think of the idea that the "Teacher of Righteousness" mentioned in the Dead Sea Scrolls might have something to do with this question?

I don't think they have anything to do with a historical Jesus Christ.


Kapyong

 

[Brainache]

...

There is Pausanias mentioning a minor Jew nobody from Palestine even. Many of these authors DO mention minor nobodies.

But the point is that nobody mentions ALL of them.

...
I don't think they have anything to do with a historical Jesus Christ.

Why not? They come from the exact time and place we are talking about. They talk about a "Messiah". They are concerned with the "End Times". They use the same proof texts for their "Messiah" as the Christians use. they share many features in common with later Christian sects (Ebionite, Gnostic etc). They emphasize certain OT Prophets who are featured in at least some versions of the Christian canon now, but not so big in Judaism (Daniel, Enoch etc.).

Even if they aren't directly related to Christianity, they represent the writings of a Second Temple Jewish sect who revered a Human "Anointed One", not a "Celestial" one.

There doesn't seem to be any evidence for a sect of Second Temple Judaism worshipping an incorporeal "Messiah".

 

[Mcreal]

Writers Contemporary with Jesus

Philo (20 BCE - 50 CE) = SClB
Philo Judaeus wrote very many books about Jewish religion and history.

• Philo was contemporary with Jesus and Paul,
• he visited Jerusalem and had family there,
• he developed the concept of the Logos and the Holy Spirit,
• he was considered a Christian by some later Christians,
• he wrote a great deal about related times and peoples and issues.

Thanks Kapyong. These are a good series of posts.

Note Philo had dealings with the actions of Pilate too, and these show Pilate was not the amenable character Christians often portray him as. This interaction doesn't mean that Philo should have heard about Jesus, but they at least show Philo's interest an interaction in events in Judea:

Pilate and his wife arrived at Caesarea in 26. Almost immediately, troubles started: soldiers had brought statues of the emperor into Jerusalem, and almost the entire population of Jerusalem marched to Caesarea, imploring the new governor to remove the effigies. There are three reports about the incident. The oldest is written by Philo in the forties and is extremely hostile to Pilate, for reasons explained [in the next quote-box below]. Philo was not present, however; he was at Alexandria, and this distance may explain some discrepancies with the other reports -both written by Flavius Josephus, whose Jewish War appeared in the seventies and is (partially) based on oral sources. He retold his tale in the nineties, when he wrote his Jewish Antiquities, the third report.

Philo of Alexandria, The embassy to Caligula 299-305

..With the intention of annoying the Jews, rather than of honoring Tiberius, [Pilate] set up gilded shields in Herod's palace in the Holy City. They bore no figure and nothing else that was forbidden, but only the briefest possible inscription, which stated two things - the name of the dedicator, and that of the person in whose honor the dedication was made.

But when the Jews at large learnt of this action, which was indeed already widely known, they chose as their spokesmen King Herod the Great's four sons, who enjoyed prestige and rank equal to that of kings, his other descendants, and their own officials, and besought Pilate to undo his innovation in the shape of the shields, and not to violate their native customs, which had hitherto been invariably preserved inviolate by kings and emperors alike.

When Pilate, who was a man of inflexible, stubborn and cruel disposition, obstinately refused, they shouted: 'Do not cause a revolt! Do not cause a war! Do not break the peace! Disrespect done to our ancient laws brings no honor to the emperor. Do not make Tiberius an excuse for insulting our nation. He does not want any of our traditions done away with. If you say that he does, show us some decree or letter or something of the sort, so that we may cease troubling you and appeal to our master by means of an embassy.'

This last remark exasperated Pilate most of all, for he was afraid that if they really sent an embassy, they would bring accusations against the rest of his administration as well, specifying in detail his venality, his violence, his thefts, his assaults, his abusive behavior, his frequent executions of untried prisoners, and his endless savage ferocity.

So, as he was a spiteful and angry person, he was in a serious dilemma; for he had neither the courage to remove what he had once set up, nor the desire to do anything which would please his subjects, but at the same time he was well aware of Tiberius' firmness on these matters. When the Jewish officials saw this, and realized that Pilate was regretting what he had done, although he did not wish to show it, they wrote a letter to Tiberius, pleading their case as forcibly as they could.

What words, what threats Tiberius uttered against Pilate when he read it! It would be superfluous to describe his anger, although he was not easily moved to anger, since his reaction speaks for itself.

For immediately, without even waiting until the next day, he wrote to Pilate, reproaching and rebuking him a thousand times for his new-fangled audacity and telling him to remove the shields at once and have them taken from the capital to the coastal city of Caesarea ...to be dedicated in the temple of Augustus. This was duly done. In this way both the honor of the emperor and the traditional policy regarding Jerusalem were alike preserved. http://www.livius.org/pi-pm/pilate/pilate04.html

In the text known as the Embassy to Caligula, Philo of Alexandria includes a letter by the Jewish prince Herod Agrippa to the emperor Caligula, in which the latter's attempt to have his statue erected in the Temple at Jerusalem is compared to Pilate's attempt to have shields with pagan inscriptions placed in his Jerusalem palace. According to the author of this letter, Pilate was corrected by the emperor Tiberius, whose behavior is presented as exemplary. To present Tiberius as a virtuous ruler, Pilate had to be presented as a despot. Besides, it should be noted that Agrippa wanted to become king of Judaea; a negative portrait of Roman government could convince the emperor that there was a real need for his accession. (The letter served both purposes; Caligula backed down and Herod Agrippa was made king of Judaea.)

Summing up, we may conclude that the gospels do not represent the historical truth when they show us a well meaning but weak Pilate. On the other hand, the two Jewish sources have their own agendas. If we want to reconstruct the historical truth, we will have to be extremely careful. http://www.livius.org/pi-pm/pilate/pilate01.htm

The letter may be XXXVIII. (299) here - http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/yonge/book40.html

One comment I would have is perhaps the title of your post could be Writers Contemporary with when Jesus is supposed to have lived

 

[Kapyong]

Gday Brainache and all

But the point is that nobody mentions ALL of them.

That's true, but it doesn't change anything. Note that this thread is a presentation of the evidence we should all agree to.

My only real claim here is that these writers COULD have mentioned Jesus Christ, which I think is certainly true. I have also given the books ratings to help evaluate the likelihood of a mention :

• the Subject is relevant (S or s)
• the book is Contemporary (C or c)
• the work is Local (L or l)
• the book is Big with lots of names etc. (B or b)
• the book is a Christian work (X)

It is not usual to add Christian books to such a list, but I chose to add those four because of their very strange silence.

Why not? They come from the exact time and place we are talking about. They talk about a "Messiah". They are concerned with the "End Times". They use the same proof texts for their "Messiah" as the Christians use. they share many features in common with later Christian sects (Ebionite, Gnostic etc). They emphasize certain OT Prophets who are featured in at least some versions of the Christian canon now, but not so big in Judaism (Daniel, Enoch etc.). Even if they aren't directly related to Christianity, they represent the writings of a Second Temple Jewish sect who revered a Human "Anointed One", not a "Celestial" one.

Because there just isn't any clear connection is there ? And fringe scholar Barbara Thiering's crazy pesher talk didn't help.

There doesn't seem to be any evidence for a sect of Second Temple Judaism worshipping an incorporeal "Messiah".

Well, apart from Paul who had a supernatural vision of Jesus Christ. And the others he lists as having such a vision - James, Peter, the twelve, 500 brothers...

And the many docetics who believed in a Jesus Christ who was an incorporeal phantasm - Marcion, Basilides, Bardesanes, Simon and Cleobius, Photinus and the Samosatan, the Manichaeans, and followers of Montanus.

Not to mention the various supernatural views of different brands of Gnostics.

So - apart from all those examples,
what HAVE the Romans ever done for us, eh ?


Kapyong

 

[Kapyong]

Gday Mcreal

Thanks Kapyong. These are a good series of posts.

Thanks buddy I appreciate that.

Note Philo had dealings with the actions of Pilate too, and these show Pilate was not the amenable character Christians often portray him as. This interaction doesn't mean that Philo should have heard about Jesus, but they at least show Philo's interest an interaction in events in Judea:

Good point, I'll add a note about Pilate to Philo.

One comment I would have is perhaps the title of your post could be Writers Contemporary with when Jesus is supposed to have lived

Ah yes - I think I'll say the 'alleged Jesus'. I also like to refer to the mainstream view as the Historical Jesus Theory


Kapyong

 

[Brainache]

...
Because there just isn't any clear connection is there ? And fringe scholar Barbara Thiering's crazy pesher talk didn't help.

I'm more of an Eisenman fanboy myself.

Well, apart from Paul who had a supernatural vision of Jesus Christ. And the others he lists as having such a vision - James, Peter, the twelve, 500 brothers...

Paul's "vision" is predicated on the idea of receiving a post-crucifixion visit from Jesus. Paul claims that the crucified Jesus spoke to him. In order to be crucified one had to be subjected to a Roman punishment. I doubt that there were Romans in the celestial realm nailing ephemeral religious teachers to stakes, even in Paul's fevered imaginings.

And the many docetics who believed in a Jesus Christ who was an incorporeal phantasm - Marcion, Basilides, Bardesanes, Simon and Cleobius, Photinus and the Samosatan, the Manichaeans, and followers of Montanus.

How many of those groups are Second Temple Jewish?

Not to mention the various supernatural views of different brands of Gnostics.

Christian mystics from centuries later don't really count as Second Temple Judaism either.

So - apart from all those examples,
what HAVE the Romans ever done for us, eh ?


Kapyong

Not examples and the Romans gave us Catholicism...

 

[Kapyong]

Gday Brainache and all

Paul's "vision" is predicated on the idea of receiving a post-crucifixion visit from Jesus. Paul claims that the crucified Jesus spoke to him. In order to be crucified one had to be subjected to a Roman punishment. I doubt that there were Romans in the celestial realm nailing ephemeral religious teachers to stakes, even in Paul's fevered imaginings.

No, Paul did not blame the Romans.

Anyway - OF COURSE a crucifixion CAN be heavenly - seriously Brainache, do you have any real reason otherwise, apart from your 'doubt' ?

I don't seem to be making much progress explaining the Jesus Myth Theory, especially on this most basic point - that it happened in heaven - because NONE of these things are limited to EARTH. The stories of heaven(s) in those days include all sorts of beings and objects and actions and PUNISHMENTS.

The limitation is strictly in YOUR imagination.

No-one person is responsible for all this, but here is an excerpted summary of some recent conversations I've had :

Jesus was 'born of woman', that MUST mean on Earth historically.
No, it can be heavenly, like the woman in Rev. e.g.

Jesus was a 'man', that MUST mean on Earth historically.
No, a man can be heavenly, e.g. Enoch, or mythical.

Jesus was a 'Jew', that MUST mean on Earth historically.
No, a Jew can be heavenly, e.g. Enoch or the Wandering Jew.

Jesus was 'after the flesh', that MUST mean on Earth historically.
No, Paul uses kata sarka metaphorically.

Jesus had a brother, that MUST mean on Earth historically.
No, it's a label, or title 'Lord's Brother'.

Jesus had 'sperm', that MUST mean on Earth historically.
No, why must it ?

Jesus was crucified, that MUST mean on Earth historically.
Really, why ?

Why do you believe that this, or that, thing could NOT happen in Heaven, Brainache, and others ?

How many of those groups are Second Temple Jewish?

When did Jews turn into Christians ? Sure, you claimed there were no 2TJews who worshipped an incorporeal Messsiah, and I responded with CHRISTIANS who did so.

But they weren't 2TJews, so they don't count, you say. Count for what exactly ? Here is a big list of early Christians who believed in an incorporeal Jesus Christ - but you just waved them away

Christian mystics from centuries later don't really count as Second Temple Judaism either.

Sorry But the Gnostics are NOT (all) from 'centuries later', and they are Christians, not 2TJews, yes, so ? - but you just waved them away too

Pardon me Brainache, but why are you here ?

I'm here to debate and discuss, in a friendly way, early Christian history (inter alia), with intelligent and informed adult equals

Your adversarial behaviour clearly suggests you are here to score points bashing a stupid mythicist

I don't wish to engage in a negative argument like that. Let's strive to be polite and friendly, and treat members here as equals, OK ?


Kapyong

 

[Elagabalus]

...Pardon me Brainache, but why are you here ?

I'm here to debate and discuss, in a friendly way, early Christian history (inter alia), with intelligent and informed adult equals

Your adversarial behaviour clearly suggests you are here to score points bashing a stupid mythicist

I don't wish to engage in a negative argument like that. Let's strive to be polite and friendly, and treat members here as equals, OK ?


Kapyong

I think you might be reading something into the comments that aren't there. I'm not seeing any adversarial behaviour. Just critiques delivered in a polite way.

...I don't wish to engage in a negative argument like that...

This last sentence could also be taken to mean that you do not wish to engage anyone who makes remarks critical of your assertions that you perceive to be negative?

 

[Porpoise of Life]

I don't see how your list supports a purely celestial Jesus.
Yes, those authors could all have mentioned Jesus if he had been a man, but they could also have mentioned him if he had always been a mythical creature. The fact that they did not does not prove anything either way. Just that he wasn't well known or important enough.
Whether he was either a Mithras-like mystery cult deity, or a traveling Jewish rabbi that inspired several groups of weirdos cannot be derived from his absence in historical sources.

 

[Brainache]

Gday Brainache and all




No, Paul did not blame the Romans.

Romans were the people who performed crucifixions though, weren't they?

Anyway - OF COURSE a crucifixion CAN be heavenly - seriously Brainache, do you have any real reason otherwise, apart from your 'doubt' ?

Then please find an example in the literature of the time of anyone within the Jewish tradition ever claiming such a thing. (apart from your assertions about Paul's "vision")

I don't seem to be making much progress explaining the Jesus Myth Theory, especially on this most basic point - that it happened in heaven - because NONE of these things are limited to EARTH. The stories of heaven(s) in those days include all sorts of beings and objects and actions and PUNISHMENTS.

Then educate me. Show me some examples of where these PUNISHMENTS in heaven are described in second temple Judaic traditions.

The limitation is strictly in YOUR imagination.

No-one person is responsible for all this, but here is an excerpted summary of some recent conversations I've had :

Jesus was 'born of woman', that MUST mean on Earth historically.
No, it can be heavenly, like the woman in Rev. e.g.

Cherry picking? The whole sentence reads: " 4 But when the fullness of time had come, God sent forth his Son, born of woman, born under the law, 5 to redeem those who were under the law, so that we might receive adoption as sons." ( https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Galatians+4&version=ESV )

Jesus was a 'man', that MUST mean on Earth historically.
No, a man can be heavenly, e.g. Enoch, or mythical.

Jesus was a 'Jew', that MUST mean on Earth historically.
No, a Jew can be heavenly, e.g. Enoch or the Wandering Jew.

What makes you think Enoch was "heavenly"? According to the story he was a Prophet: " Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about them...' (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Jude ), or are you now going to say that descendents of Adam must be "heavenly" because we now know that Adam didn't really exist?

Jesus was 'after the flesh', that MUST mean on Earth historically.
No, Paul uses kata sarka metaphorically.

I disagree. Paul makes a big distinction between "Flesh" and "Spirit". He goes so far as to claim that he has a superior connection to Jesus because he didn't know him in the "flesh" like those "super Apostles" in Jerusalem.

Jesus had a brother, that MUST mean on Earth historically.
No, it's a label, or title 'Lord's Brother'.

That is of course debatable.

Jesus had 'sperm', that MUST mean on Earth historically.
No, why must it ?

Actually I think you'll find Paul said: "Paul, a servant of Christ Jesus, called to be an apostle and set apart for the gospel of God— 2 the gospel he promised beforehand through his prophets in the Holy Scriptures 3 regarding his Son, who as to his earthly life[a] was a descendant of David, 4 and who through the Spirit of holiness was appointed the Son of God in power by his resurrection from the dead: Jesus Christ our Lord" ( https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans+1-3 )

Jesus was crucified, that MUST mean on Earth historically.
Really, why ?

Why do you believe that this, or that, thing could NOT happen in Heaven, Brainache, and others ?

Because there is no reason to suppose that Paul was claiming any such thing.

When did Jews turn into Christians ? Sure, you claimed there were no 2TJews who worshipped an incorporeal Messsiah, and I responded with CHRISTIANS who did so.

But they weren't 2TJews, so they don't count, you say. Count for what exactly ? Here is a big list of early Christians who believed in an incorporeal Jesus Christ - but you just waved them away

Because as far as I understand the MJ idea, it requires that the first followers of Jesus (who were indeed 2nd Temple Jews) believed that their Messiah only existed in some ethereal celestial realm. As far as I can tell, 2nd temple Jews had no such belief in incorporeal saviours.

Sorry But the Gnostics are NOT (all) from 'centuries later', and they are Christians, not 2TJews, yes, so ? - but you just waved them away too

So they represent the tradition as it was after the time of Jesus. They believed that Jesus had existed on earth in the past, they just claimed that his flesh was somehow "Divine".

Pardon me Brainache, but why are you here ?

I'm here to debate and discuss, in a friendly way, early Christian history (inter alia), with intelligent and informed adult equals

Your adversarial behaviour clearly suggests you are here to score points bashing a stupid mythicist

I don't wish to engage in a negative argument like that. Let's strive to be polite and friendly, and treat members here as equals, OK ?

I'm here to debate. I am not being rude or "bashing" anyone. I am disagreeing with your interpretation of these things. I don't put cheesey greetings at the top of my posts or sign off with smiley faces because I think that is irrelevant, but if you think that amounts to rudeness, I apologise.