Life is Just an Illusion?

[Iacchus]

From the thread, Your thoughts on atheism ...

Asked and answered, Ratman...

My thoughts on Atheism? Atheism is just a set of beliefs, just like any other religious set of beliefs.

Please list this set of beliefs, as you see them.

No need to, have already established that man is a creature of belief. You know, where does the belief of this real world go when we die? Certainly, according to you, we are no longer capable of believing that we were here, right? Anyway, so much for the idea of having the whole thing etched in concrete, because it isn't any more concrete than the notion of God ... when we die that is. So really, what it all boils down to is what we believe will happen after we die.

Didn't think you would, or could.

Care to retract your earlier statement and admit your ignorance?

And yet what is a religion, except a certain set of precepts or beliefs? Buddhism is a religion isn't it? And yet it doesn't outright proclaim the notion of God does it? So, to insist that Atheism, in its lack of belief, is not religious in any way whatsoever, is bogus. Because we have to believe in something.

Having beliefs is not the same thing as having a set of beliefs. Again I ask you, please list the set of beliefs that unites atheists such as myself. You must know more about it than I do, because I am in ignorance of any such set of beliefs.

Enlighten me.

Are you saying that you don't believe the real world is all that we have? That certainly sounds like a set of beliefs if you ask me. And, since when is Science capable of defining anything with 100% accuracy? Why is the theory of evolution still a theory? Why will it always remain a theory?

So much for what we believe in this world, right?

 

[Zep]

I believe life on earth was started by the Martians. We were originally made from a mixture of breakfast cereal and bellybutton lint.

If belief is ALL we need to justify our arguments, then I'm right.

 

[Dogwood]

I believe in deja vu.

 

[Iacchus]

If belief is ALL we need to justify our arguments, then I'm right.

And what belief might that be? That man is nothing but a creature of belief? Exactly!

 

[Iacchus]

I believe in deja vu.

That's entirely possible, when you consider that spirits (those who are deceased and passed on) live their lives through us. For example, here's what it says in the book of Matthew regarding the resurrection ...

31 But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying,

32 I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living. ~ Matthew 22:31-32

 

[Zep]

And what belief might that be? That man is nothing but a creature of belief? Exactly!

*sigh* Let me quote me.

I believe life on earth was started by the Martians. We were originally made from a mixture of breakfast cereal and bellybutton lint.

This I believe to be true. Ergo, since I believe it, it IS true. Surely that's obvious to you?

 

[Dymanic]

Originally posted by dogwood

An atheist is someone who is without a belief in a god. Period. It means nothing more than that. Atheism does not come with a predetermined set of beliefs or a philosophy. There are, in fact, at least as many different types of atheists as there are theists. It is a null position. It does not require a knowledge of science much less a belief in it.

I agree with all of that.

At the same time, when Iacchus says: "Anybody can believe in Science, just that Atheists tend to adhere to it more than others" I have to admit that (incredibly) it makes a certain amount of sense. It isn't part of a good definition of atheism, but I'd have to admit that upon learning that a person was an atheist, I would be inclined (pehaps without even realizing it) to extrapolate from that that he would be more likely to be amenable to explanations based on science (good or bad) than I would if I knew nothing at all about him. Once supernatural explanations are rejected, what else is left?

Why must everyone believe in something?

I think there is a limit to how much choice we have about this. Above all else, the human mind craves understanding. Words like 'confused' and 'bewildered' have negative connotations because they refer to mental states which we experience as intensely uncomfortable. Our minds will leap at any chance for relief. Where facts are not available, blank spots are often filled in instantly, automatically, and seamlessly, using defaults -- or even with 'facts' fabricated right on the spot for this very purpose. It is tempting to first point to this phenomenon as the origin of religion, but new ideas in science would not be possible without this ability either. Science begins by acknowledging that human understanding is a mixture of genuine and fabricated data, and attempts to devise methods for separating one from the other.

 

[Iacchus]

*sigh* Let me quote me.

This I believe to be true. Ergo, since I believe it, it IS true. Surely that's obvious to you?

Hey, I believe that there's an entirely rational explanation for why we're here. However, that still does not take it out of the realm of belief. Which, I'm afraid is not possible, since there's no way of ascertaining that the life as we know it is not just an illusion ... unless of course there was an afterlife? And even then, we would still have to admit that it was an illusion, to the extent that we thought that's all there was.

 

[Yahweh]

My thoughts on Atheism? Atheism is just a set of beliefs, just like any other religious set of beliefs.

If I remember correctly, religious belief means a belief which is based on the life and teachings of a spiritual leader. I dont think Mercutio's is religious.

Atheism basically means "lack of belief in God". There are probably a few religions which lack or deny the belief in God, but I dont think "atheism" is a religion in and of itself.

You know, where does the belief of this real world go when we die? Certainly, according to you, we are no longer capable of believing that we were here, right? Anyway, so much for the idea of having the whole thing etched in concrete, because it isn't any more concrete than the notion of God ... when we die that is. So really, what it all boils down to is what we believe will happen after we die.

When we die, our beliefs die. At best, those beliefs can live on by writing them down, or teaching those beliefs to others.

And yet what is a religion, except a certain set of precepts or beliefs? Buddhism is a religion isn't it? And yet it doesn't outright proclaim the notion of God does it? So, to insist that Atheism, in its lack of belief, is not religious in any way whatsoever, is bogus. Because we have to believe in something.

There are many people lack a belief in a lot of things:
* Lochness creatures
* Gnomes
* Unicorns
* etc.

There is no reason why that lack of belief must be filled in with something else.

And, since when is Science capable of defining anything with 100% accuracy? Why is the theory of evolution still a theory? Why will it always remain a theory?

There is no such thing as 100% accuracy, there is always room for doubt. Everything in science is supposed to be tenable.

(The word "theory" means "large collection of facts which describe natural phenomena". So yes, evolution will always remain a theory.)

 

[Kopji]

Buddhism is a religion isn't it? And yet it doesn't outright proclaim the notion of God does it?

Buddhism has some aspects that are religious and some that are philosophical. Within some schools is the idea that 'belief in gods' is a necessary or acceptable state people progress through on their way to a greater 'god-less' understanding. It is often the use of spiritual authority that guides and promotes these beliefs, so Buddhism is often rightly grouped with traditional religions.

Likewise, there are Christians like Bishop Spong who don't believe in a supernatural God, or otherwise they advocate a 'God within'. Yet Spong does not describe himself as atheist. He relies on a form of spiritual authority to promote his message.

An atheist simply rejects spiritual authority as a valid source of knowledge. Religion as we understand the word, would have no place to come from without spiritual authority.

To call atheism a religion is to twist the word religion in a way you would not accept if atheists twisted the word atheist and called some members of religious groups "atheists".

 

[Ratman_tf]

My thoughts on Atheism? Atheism is just a set of beliefs, just like any other religious set of beliefs.

You can believe anything you like. It doesn't necessarily mean it's true.

No need to, have already established that man is a creature of belief.

I believe you are wrong.

And yet what is a religion, except a certain set of precepts or beliefs? Buddhism is a religion isn't it? And yet it doesn't outright proclaim the notion of God does it? So, to insist that Atheism, in its lack of belief, is not religious in any way whatsoever, is bogus. Because we have to believe in something.

Then we're all atheists, aren't we?

 

[Zep]

Hey, I believe that there's an entirely rational explanation for why we're here. However, that still does not take it out of the realm of belief. Which, I'm afraid is not possible, since there's no way of ascertaining that the life as we know it is not just an illusion ... unless of course there was an afterlife? And even then, we would still have to admit that it was an illusion, to the extent that we thought that's all there was.

OK, then what if we were just the imaginings of the Martians (after they ate the breakfast cereal and belly-button lint). This, too, I believe to be true (I like to change my belief at the drop of a hat, Martian or otherwise). Thus it IS in the realm of belief - MY realm of belief (everyone else's is illusory). And so it must be true, no?

 

[Iacchus]

If I remember correctly, religious belief means a belief which is based on the life and teachings of a spiritual leader. I dont think Mercutio's is religious.

Yet it's entirely possible to practice something religiously, without bringing up any notion of God whatsoever.

While here's the number 1 definiton of "religious" from Meriam-Webster.com ...

1 : relating to or manifesting faithful devotion to an acknowledged ultimate reality or deity ...

So, it sounds to me like it's not necessarily contingent upon the belief in any deity.

Atheism basically means "lack of belief in God". There are probably a few religions which lack or deny the belief in God, but I dont think "atheism" is a religion in and of itself.

Why address yourselves as Atheists then if, it doesn't really matter what you believe? Why open yourselves up for possible ridicule by those who might believe otherwise?

Why establish an Atheistic type of community here on the James Radi Forums if, in fact you didn't believe there was some inherent interest in your beliefs? Why petition for the need for freedom of belief at all if, it doesn't really matter? Could it be that you feel persecuted because of your beliefs?

I mean how far do we have to go to establish that "birds of a feather flock together?" It sounds to me like we have a regular congregation here!

 

[Zep]

Yet it's entirely possible to practice something religiously, without bringing up any notion of God whatsoever.

While here's the number 1 definiton of "religious" from Meriam-Webster.com ...

So, it sounds to me like it's not necessarily contingent upon the belief in any deity.


Why address yourselves as Atheists then if, it doesn't really matter what you believe? Why open yourselves up for possible ridicule by those who might believe otherwise?

Why establish an Atheistic type of community here on the James Radi Forums if, in fact you didn't believe there was some inherent interest in your beliefs? Why petition for the need for freedom of belief at all, if it doesn't really matter? Could it be that you feel persecuted because of your beliefs?

I mean how far do we have to go to suggest that "birds of a feather flock together?" It sounds to me like we have a regular congregation here!

Whole lot of strawmen going on...

1. Many come to ridicule us, very few stay very long - their own arguments rarely stand up to scrutiny.

2. The JREF is not atheist at all, nor does it promote or vilify religion. Some individuals here might do so, but other notable individuals here happen to hold various religious beliefs (i.e. they aren't atheists). I don't see them being tossed out, or persecuted...

3. Birds of a feather sounds OK, but perhaps YOU might like to describe for us what the commonality might be if such is the case?

 

[Iacchus]

Whole lot of strawmen going on...

1. Many come to ridicule us, very few stay very long - their own arguments rarely stand up to scrutiny.

And what exactly do you mean by us? And why do you seem to take exception when I begin to speak about the merits or, the lack thereof, Atheism?

2. The JREF is not atheist at all, nor does it promote or vilify religion. Some individuals here might do so, but other notable individuals here happen to hold various religious beliefs (i.e. they aren't atheists). I don't see them being tossed out, or persecuted...

Or, perhaps it's just those people I've come into contact with? And please don't tell me that you're a Deist.

3. Birds of a feather sounds OK, but perhaps YOU might like to describe for us what the commonality might be if such is the case?

Oh, do you mean to the extent that I don't remember too many people disagreeing with me that weren't avowed Atheists? Come on now, I've been posting here for nine months.

 

[Iacchus]

OK, then what if we were just the imaginings of the Martians (after they ate the breakfast cereal and belly-button lint). This, too, I believe to be true (I like to change my belief at the drop of a hat, Martian or otherwise). Thus it IS in the realm of belief - MY realm of belief (everyone else's is illusory). And so it must be true, no?

Hey, you gotta believe in something, right?

 

[Zep]

Hey, you gotta believe in something, right?

So that's a "yes"?

 

[Iacchus]

There is no reason why that lack of belief must be filled in with something else.

Ever conisider the possibility that nature abhors a vacuum? Well, this is what I've heard anyway.

 

[Zep]

And what exactly do you mean by us? And why do you seem to take exception when I begin to speak about the merits or, the lack thereof, Atheism?

By "us" I mean posters on JREF. That would include you.


Or, perhaps it's just those people I've come into contact with? And please don't tell me that you're a Deist.

What difference should my beliefs make to your answer? And I won't tell you if I'm a deist, now that you've asked nicely.


Oh, do you mean to the extent that I don't remember too many people disagreeing with me that weren't avowed Atheists? Come on now, I've been posting here for nine months.

Umm, yeah. So your argument goes like this, does it? "It is always atheists who disagree with me here. Therefore everyone who disagrees with me here must be an atheist."

 

[Iacchus]

What difference should my beliefs make to your answer? And I won't tell you if I'm a deist, now that you've asked nicely.

Yes, then what the heck are we arguing for then?

Umm, yeah. So your argument goes like this, does it? "It is always atheists who disagree with me here. Therefore everyone who disagrees with me here must be an atheist."

And yet it's been all about the merits of Science and the lack of religion thereof. So please tell me that these are not the same people that I've been arguing with.