Libertarians in Europe?

Thunder

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Are there any libertarians left in Europe?

It seems like, I guess from across the Pond, that both left-wingers and right-wingers all accept a lot of the same stuff, being the strong welfare-state, environmental rules, economic regulations, etc.

Though right-wingers tend to be nationalists/racists and left-wingers tend to be internationalists.

This is in contrast to the American left-wing/right-wing paradigm...where left-wingers in the USA tend to be pro-welfare state, pro-regulations, pro-choice, etc..and right-wingers are anti-regulation, anti-gun control, anti-immigration, pro-states' rights.

So, are there any libertarians left in Europa?
 
one would think that since all European countries are parliamentary systems, there would be some libertarian parties.

aren't there any?
 
I think you'd have to define libertarian for the question to mean anything. In the US, it seems to mean something wholly different to how I would take it.
 
Thunder said:
one would think that since all European countries are parliamentary systems, there would be some libertarian parties.

aren't there any?
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The only time I hear the term it is people from the US. I do not hear it over here. If it means central with a few kooky policies then I guess the closest we have are the Liberals.
 
We have a libertarian party in Norway, but it's very very very small. At the last parliamentary election, it got 0,013% of the votes.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberal_People's_Party_(Norway)

ETA: Should note that liberalism and libertarianism isn't really that different in Europe, it's just a difference in how far you want to take liberalism. Most European liberal parties tend to lean towards social liberalism. You could call the libertarians classical liberals on speed or liberal extremists. Or call them whatever, chances are there will be none of them around to hear it.

I consider myself a classical liberal, but feel more at home in Norway's social liberal Liberal Party than in the libertarian party. Those guys are just weird.

On another note, European libertarians don't call themselves libertarians. I do believe that's a purely American term. Many European libertarians do use the terms liberalistic to refer to themselves, and liberal to those who aren't pure followers of classical or Ayn Randian liberalism.
 
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In the UK, the three main parties (Conservatives, Labour and Liberal Democrats) dance on the head of a pin, spinning and altering their policies in an effort to appeal to the large proportion of the UK that are 'floating voters.' Their manifestos are geared towards pleasing the largest possible proportion of the population and thus garnering the largest number of votes.

The few political parties that have set and unchangable policies are either disgustingly fascist (the BNP or UKIP) or sixth-form-it's-not-fair socialists (the SWP), and thus appeal to a small but, distressingly, growing minority.

I place the Green Party in a separate set of what I refer to as 'frog-in-a-blender' politics...green untill you flick the switch and then it goes red.
 
When I say "Libertarian", I mean emphasizing individual rights, regional autonomy, lower taxes, less gov. regulations, less federal power and control, etc etc etc.

this would include pro-drug legalization, pro-abortion rights, pro-gun rights.
 
"Small-l" libertarians in the US are usually called "Liberal" in Europe.

Capital-L Libertarians in Europe are usually called "loco," "verruckt," "meshuggane," "psih," and so on.
 
Thunder said:
When I say "Libertarian", I mean emphasizing individual rights, regional autonomy, lower taxes, less gov. regulations, less federal power and control, etc etc etc.

this would include pro-drug legalization, pro-abortion rights, pro-gun rights.
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Did you read the Wikipedia article on the Norwegian Liberal People's Party?

Of course, they're not for less federal power, as we're not a federation. I had no idea what their stance on civilian owned weapons was, as this really isn't an issue most Norwegians care about, but I checked their program, and yes, they're pro gun rights - as in, they want civilians to have unrestricted rights to own firearms. They're also for legalizing all recreational drugs. And they want to abolish all taxes, and run the police, the courts and the military by voluntary contributions. How more libertarian can you get?

As for pro-abortion, all parties in Norway except the Christian People's Party is that - and even they try not to mention it unless someone corners them and forces them to take a stand. It's a non-issue on Norway.
 
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Cleon said:
"Small-l" libertarians in the US are usually called "Liberal" in Europe.
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Not quite; European Liberals tend to sit somewhere between conservative (right) and labour/social democrat (left) parties, solidly occupying the middle ground.

It tends to be the conservative parties who promote small government, usually on the basis that it interferes with the private sector, but even then their idea of "small government" is several order of magnitude greater than US libertarians.

I note in passing that, as other posters have said before elsewhere, mainstream European conservative parties are still somewhat to the left of the US Democrats.


Capital-L Libertarians in Europe are usually called "loco," "verruckt," "meshuggane," "psih," and so on.
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In my country you'll find it's spelled "pish". Mind you, most Europeans would be hard-pushed to tell you wat Libertarian meant, perhaps guessing someone from Liberia..... ;)
 
Thunder said:
one would think that since all European countries are parliamentary systems, there would be some libertarian parties.
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Does it not occur to you that the madness that is Libertarianism might be a predominantly US phenomenon?

It's a bit like saying "they play sport in Europe, surely there must be some American Football played?". (A: Yes, but not very much because it's a crap game and really, you should try this rugby thing a bit more).
 
Thunder said:
When I say "Libertarian", I mean emphasizing individual rights, regional autonomy, lower taxes, less gov. regulations, less federal power and control, etc etc etc.

this would include pro-drug legalization, pro-abortion rights, pro-gun rights.
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As others have said, US politics has such completely different frames of reference that it just doesn't translate when you look at individual issues. Most European parties, even the right wing ones, appear to be far to the left of the Democrat Party in many ways. Speaking very broadly, though obviously with a UK bias, there are probably few parties in favour of drug legalisation, but very few opposed to abortion on demand (though some disagreement on the period in which it would be allowed). I'd be surprised to find any mainstream party in Europe in favour of gun laws anything like those in the US. Most countries are not federal in the way the US is (Germany is something of an exception, with the multiple layers of government partly imposed after WWII to make it more difficult for one person to take power again), though there are parties wanting more autonomy for certain regions (the SNP in Scotland, Plaid Cymru in Wales, the Basque parties in Spain, etc.)
 
I think the main issue is, left vs. right in Europe is a bit different than left vs. right in America.

In the USA, the left tends to be social-democratic and liberal-progressive...while the right tends to be a combination of anti-federalism, anti-regulation......except when it comes to drugs, abortion, and immigration.

so, when right-wingers in the USA argue that Nazism was a leftist movement, they are SORTA right...but only if they look at it from the American left-right paradigm. When looked at through the eyes of a European, it is clearly a right-wing movement.
 
It's always seemed to me that politics curls back on itself, much like the model of space time posited by Einstein.

If you go far enough to the left, you eventually come out on the right.

The only real difference between Hitler and Stalin was that Stalin took advice and avoided repeating mistakes.
 
Naddig74 said:
It's always seemed to me that politics curls back on itself, much like the model of space time posited by Einstein.

If you go far enough to the left, you eventually come out on the right.

The only real difference between Hitler and Stalin was that Stalin took advice and avoided repeating mistakes.
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they both believed in Totalitarianism, suppression of dissent, one party rule, a violent police state, no freedom of thought or expression.

Hitler sorta believed in private property. and he liked nature. other than that...they were two sides of the same coin.
 
Thunder said:
they both believed in Totalitarianism, suppression of dissent, one party rule, a violent police state, no freedom of thought or expression.

Hitler sorta believed in private property. and he liked nature. other than that...they were two sides of the same coin.
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Just so. :)
 
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