Liberals sack MP for Palestinian comments

[BillyTK]

Liberal Democrat leader Charles Kennedy has <del>sacked</del> asked front bencher* Jenny Tonge to step down following her remarks about Palestinian suicide bombers.

"Her recent remarks about suicide bombers are completely unacceptable," said Kennedy. "They are not compatible with Liberal Democrat party policies and principles. There can be no justification, under any circumstances for taking innocent lives through terrorism."

The decision follows Tonge's comments at the Palestinian Solidarity Campaign [PSC]. Her controversial comments were; "Many, many people criticise, many, many people say it is just another form of terrorism, but I can understand and I am a fairly emotional person and I am a mother and a grandmother. I think if I had to live in that situation, and I say this advisedly, I might just consider becoming one myself. And that is a terrible thing to say." Dr Tonge sought to clarify her comments by explaining on Newsnight that if she were an Israeli grandmother she would act like an Israeli grandmother, and if she'd been a French grandmother during the middle ages she would probably have done a lot of knitting and attended beheadings of aristos.**

She also said, "That doesn't mean to say I condone suicide bombers, I don't. I think it's appalling and loathsome. But we have to try and understand where they are coming from and understand the situation in which they live."

This was contradicted by a spokesman for the Israeli embassy who said, "We would not expect any human being - and surely not a British MP - to express an understanding of such atrocities." Her comments have been variously condemned by her own party as well as Labour MP Louise Ellman, who claims Dr Tonge's comments give the "green light to terrorism".

Dr Tonge also advocates legalising cocaine, saying, "I am a mother and a grandmother. I think if I had to live on a run-down inner city estate surrounded by crack-whore grannies, and I say this advisedly, I might just consider becoming one myself. And that is a terrible thing to say."***

*Front-bencher: British terminology for an MP who is allowed to sit in Parliament on the front bench with their leader of their party. See also, cabinet; shadow cabinet; bum-licker.

**I made the French thing up.

***And the crack-whore granny thing.

 

[Frank Newgent]

[size=1/8]What do people in Dr Jenny Tonge's
constituency think think about this?[/size]

"Her recent remarks about
bombing civilians are
completely unacceptable."

 

[BillyTK]

[size=1/8]What do people in Dr Jenny Tonge's
constituency think think about this?[/size]

"Her recent remarks about
bombing civilians are
completely unacceptable."

I dunno if they're big Roy Orbison fans?

 

[Frank Newgent]

I dunno if they're big Roy Orbison fans?

[size=1/2]For you don't love me
And I'll always be crying for your love
Crying for your love
Yes now you're gone
And from this moment on
I'll be crying
Crying Crying
Crying Crying

[/size]

Have you ever heard the version of this song from the movie Mulholland Drive? Silencio...

 

[demon]

If Jenny Tonge had said "if I were an Israeli suffering regular terror attacks, I might be tempted to support illegal oppression," would she have been sacked? No.
If she had said "if I were a battered woman who had suffered years of systematic abuse, I might be tempted to kill my husband," would she have been sacked? No.

Of course, it isn’t done to point out that the Palestinians are by far the bigger victim. That it is they who are an occupied people, suffering the obscenity of apartheid. That it is they who are trying, with stones and home-made explosives, to repel the fourth most powerful army in the world and stand up to a nation that, by virtue of its strategic value to the US, is immune from international law.

No: no sympathy for this victim is allowed.

Cheri Blair and Oona King expressed similar sentiments concerning the plight of occupied/oppressed Palestinians and they did not get sacked.
Bomber Harris under orders from Churchill firestormed Dresden and the USA dropped atom bombs on Japanese cities. Hundreds of thousands of civilians, children & women were annihilated because Brits and Americans were fighting against oppressive regimes.

Again, this just serves to illustrate the prevailing racism that still exists in England, that Palestinians/Arabs are not accorded the same prerogative in defending their own land and people.

Anti-Semitism in England? What a complete red herring.

 

[Skeptic]

[Bomber Harris under orders from Churchill firestormed Dresden and the USA dropped atom bombs on Japanese cities. Hundreds of thousands of civilians, children & women were annihilated because Brits and Americans were fighting against oppressive regimes.

Again, this just serves to illustrate the prevailing racism that still exists in England, that Palestinians/Arabs are not accorded the same prerogative in defending their own land and people.

There you have it in a nutshell: the difference between the jews and the Arabs.

When jews (or their sympathizers) complain about antisemitism in Britian, they complain that many Britons would not let jews do what the Britons were always allowed to do... like becoming prime minister.

When Arabs (or they sympathisers, like demon) complain about "anti-Arab" feelings in Britian, they, too, complain that many Britons would not let Arabs do what the Britons were always allowed to do... like butchering hundreds of thousands of their enemies.

"It's not fair! I, too, want to become prime minister!" might be a bit whiny, but "It's not fair! I, too, want to butcher my enemies!" is barbarism in its purest form. But then again, it shows you what the "poor, opressed" Palestinians or the Arab followers of the "religion of peace" REALLY have on their mind when they speak of "legitimate resistance to the occupation" and other such euphemisms, doesn't it?

 

[The idea]

Liberal Democrat leader Charles Kennedy has <del>sacked</del> asked front bencher* Jenny Tonge to step down following her remarks about Palestinian suicide bombers.

The headline I see says:

Jenny Tonge has been asked by Liberal Democrat leader Charles Kennedy to quit his front bench following her remarks about Palestinian suicide bombers.

It sounds as though Tonge has been spending too much time under Charles Kennedy's front bench.

She was speaking to a pro-Palestinian lobby when she said of Palestinian suicide bombers: "If I had to live in that situation - and I say that advisedly - I might just consider becoming one myself."

How much longer do we have to wait before there is a vocal group asserting that there are no Palestinian suicide bombers, that it is a hoax? Then the comments might be rephrased as follows: "If there were Palestinian suicide bombers and if I had to live the way I imagine them being forced to live, then I might myself become one, not that there are any."

 

[The Fool]

When jews (or their sympathizers) complain about antisemitism in Britian, they complain that many Britons would not let jews do what the Britons were always allowed to do... like becoming prime minister.

A blatant and deliberate misrepresentation as usual.

We were discussing this in another thread when you fled in the face of simple questions you have no answer for.

The facts, sorry to allow them to get in your way again, are..A poll found that 18 percent disagreed with the statement that a Jewish prime minister would be "equally acceptable" to a leader from any other faith.

From this you feel you can now state that many britons would not let jews become prime minister. There is NOTHING in this poll to infer that "many" britons would "not let a jew be prime minister" it simply shows that a small minority would find a prime minister of one particular religion less acceptable than a prime minister of another religion. I hate to tell you this but most prime ministers are "less acceptable" to a lot more that 18% of people for a whole raft of reasons. How come these people still allow them to be prime minister? I'm sure that in your paranoid world you think they would be fine about a muslim Prime Minister and its just a conspiracy against the Jews.... Its just common old religious bigotry "skeptic" the sort of thing you loudly support, unless its targetted at Jews..

And while we are at it here's that scary question again. Is it possible for an Anglican to become prime minister of Israel? What percentage of Israelis would you think would find an Anglican prime minister "equally acceptable" to a Jewish prime minister.... After all, if religious bigotry in Britain rightly shocks and disgusts you why do you support it in Israel?

Your Hypocricy is amazing.

 

[The idea]

[...] A poll found that 18 percent disagreed with the statement that a Jewish prime minister would be "equally acceptable" to a leader from any other faith.

it simply shows that a small minority would find a prime minister of one particular religion less acceptable than a prime minister of another religion. [...]

Is it possible that some of the 18% disagreed because they thought a Jewish PM would be preferable?

 

[Skeptic]

"The Fool", again, misses the point--intentionally--so he won't have to deal with things his beliefs don't like by pretending they don't exist. The point of me bringing up the PM-cannot-be-jewish bruhahaha in Britian is not, of course, that a jew cannot be a PM (they could). It is that if you ask the jews of Britian "what is antisemitism?", they would say, "well, 18% of the population opposing a jew be PM". This might be exagerrated (I myself am not at all sure this poll really shows antisemitism), but that's not the main issue. The main point is that they would NOT say, "well, for example, 18% of Britons opposing letting the jews butcher hundreds of thousands of Arabs, which is their right in a just war"--while demon says JUST THAT (in reverse) about what "anti-Arab racism" is.

For demon, as his post showed, "anti-Arab racism" is not letting the Arabs butcher the jews by the hundreds of thousands as part of "legitimate resistance to occupation" (or whatever the euphemism du jour for "murdering jews" is); "anti-Arab racism" is not supporting suicide bombers that blow up babies for no other reason than the fact that they're jewish. Let me repeat this: "demon" is complaining that British opposition to the Arabs genociding the jews is "racism". Which is a bit like saying that not letting a rapist rape a woman is "sexual repression", or that the police catching a thief is "kidnapping".

Simply put, demon let his mask slip for a moment and told us all, unintentionally, what he really wishes would happen to the jews--namely, that they'd be killed by the hundreds of thousands--and how awful and "racist" it is that some people oppose this, no doubt merely to spite the Arabs.

So, naturally, "The Fool" ignores it. It doesn't fit with his worldview. It must be my paranoia. But, unlike you, "The Fool", I do not ignore demon's words. Unlike you, when I find someone who claims that suicide bombers are just fine and that killing hundreds of thousands of jews would be perfectly legitimate "resistance to evil", I BELIEVE HIM. I do not think that he is just speaking out of "frustration" over the "sad situation in Palestine". I do not believe that if only he or his ilk will be given a bit more land, that israel will surrender some more territory, this hatered of jews will be satisfied. If history taught us anything, it taught us that when someone talks about how it's right and propert that more jews would be killed, THEY MEAN IT, and nothing the jews could do to appease them will work.

 

[demon]

"Simply put, demon let his mask slip for a moment and told us all, unintentionally, what he really wishes would happen to the jews--namely, that they'd be killed by the hundreds of thousands..."

Skeptic, unlike yourself, I never throw terms around like "hundreds of thousands", whether in the context of people being killed or people who want to do the killing. You need to trim your sails tiger.
I never used this gif before but this seems about as good a time as any.

 

[The Fool]

"The Fool", again, misses the point--intentionally--so he won't have to deal with things his beliefs don't like by pretending they don't exist. The point of me bringing up the PM-cannot-be-jewish bruhahaha in Britian is not, of course, that a jew cannot be a PM (they could).

Could an Anglican be prime minister of Israel. Why do you actively support discrimination based on religion in one country and condemn even a suggstion of the same thing in another?

simple question which you constantly ignore.

Simply put, demon let his mask slip for a moment and told us all, unintentionally, what he really wishes would happen to the jews--namely, that they'd be killed by the hundreds of thousands

I would like to join you in condemning thisw, unfortunately, I can't seem to find anywhere whhere he said this...can you quote it for me.....or is this just one of those "feelings" you get?



So, naturally, "The Fool" ignores it.
Lol....don't talk to me about ignoring things...you attempt to ignore your hypocricy and hope others won't notice....

I personally find it hard not to ignore something unless it actually exists...can you point it out to me?.... Sorry but I ignore all of your "feelings" as I find them the rantings of a paranoid racist.....once again, show me what it is I'm supposedly ignoring. Show me where Demon talks of his desire to see hundreds of thousands of jews killed.... Unfortunately your brain cannot cash the cheques your mouth writes....

 

[Mycroft]

Originally posted by demon
If Jenny Tonge had said "if I were an Israeli suffering regular terror attacks, I might be tempted to support illegal oppression," would she have been sacked? No.

Of course not. Placed in the context of regular terror attacks, your “illegal oppression” becomes “self-defense.”

Originally posted by demon
If she had said "if I were a battered woman who had suffered years of systematic abuse, I might be tempted to kill my husband," would she have been sacked? No.

She wouldn’t be sacked for advocating murder?

Originally posted by demon
Of course, it isn’t done to point out that the Palestinians are by far the bigger victim. That it is they who are an occupied people, suffering the obscenity of apartheid. That it is they who are trying, with stones and home-made explosives, to repel the fourth most powerful army in the world and stand up to a nation that, by virtue of its strategic value to the US, is immune from international law.

What were they the victim of before Israel captured the disputed territories?

Originally posted by demon
No: no sympathy for this victim is allowed.

It doesn’t matter what your cause is, when you advance it by murdering innocents you don’t get sympathy. It’s too bad that you don’t get that.

Originally posted by demon
Cheri Blair and Oona King expressed similar sentiments concerning the plight of occupied/oppressed Palestinians and they did not get sacked.
Bomber Harris under orders from Churchill firestormed Dresden and the USA dropped atom bombs on Japanese cities. Hundreds of thousands of civilians, children & women were annihilated because Brits and Americans were fighting against oppressive regimes.

I assume you are of the opinion that the firebombing of Dresden and the destruction of Nagasaki and Hiroshima were bad things?

Originally posted by demon
Again, this just serves to illustrate the prevailing racism that still exists in England, that Palestinians/Arabs are not accorded the same prerogative in defending their own land and people.

I’m confused, are you suggesting that the Palestinian-Arabs should have the prerogative to commit acts of destruction on the scale of Dresden, Nagasaki and Hiroshima? If it was wrong when the United States and Britton did it, why should it be okay for the Palestinian-Arabs? Should we excuse every atrocity in the world on the basis that the United States and Britton did things you don’t agree with 60 years ago?

If we excuse Palestinian-Arabs acts of terror, why should we not also excuse Israeli actions of self-defense? Why do you think one is okay and the other is not?

 

[Mycroft]

Could an Anglican be prime minister of Israel. Why do you actively support discrimination based on religion in one country and condemn even a suggstion of the same thing in another?

It seems unlikely that an Anglican would become Prime Minister of Israel, but do you presume that an Anglican couldn't?

 

[Underemployed]

An interesting question. Israeli citizenship is only up for grabs for 'genuine' Jews but I cannot find any information about what happens if you abandon your faith once you are a full citizen. It would certainly be extremely unlikely for any non-Jew to hold high public office in Israel just as it would be extremely unlikely for any non-Muslim to achieve the same status in a predominantly Muslim country.

I'm a card-carrying member of the LibDems in UK (I have run for local elections) and am seriously reconsidering my position. Jenny Tonge spoke plainly and reasonably - rare enough for a politician - and this is how the media, her fellow members and the public react. I'm ashamed.

Did she encourage suicide bombers? No. Did she apologise for them? No. She said she could understand what drove them to become suicide bombers. Understanding the cause of a problem is the first step to solving it. I can understand why drug addicts commit crimes to feed their habit. Does that mean I condone drug abuse?

 

[BillyTK]

So I leave this thread over night and look what happens; it gets vandalised and covered in nasty grafitti. Please people, can we stay on topic here and save the head-banging, strawmen and appeals to the peanut gallery for the other Israel threads?

Here's a few suggestions for discussion;
Was Dr. Tonge within her rights to say what she did?
Do her comments in anyway conflict with her position as a Liberal MP or as an MP in general?
Are her comments truthful?
What about the Israeli embassy's comments that "We would not expect any human being - and surely not a British MP - to express an understanding of such atrocities"?
Or Labour MP Louise Ellman's suggestion that Dr Tonge's comments give a green light to terrorism?

This list is not extensive or exclusive. Please feel free to introduce any subjects which you consider to be of relevance to the thread. Also feel free to address each other's posts, but in a civil way, using reasoned argument, not wild accusations, fallacious appeals or ad homs.

Thank you.

 

[BillyTK]

Hi Underemployed, thanks for your considered and thoughtful reply.

I'm a card-carrying member of the LibDems in UK (I have run for local elections) and am seriously reconsidering my position. Jenny Tonge spoke plainly and reasonably - rare enough for a politician - and this is how the media, her fellow members and the public react. I'm ashamed.

Would you say that the LibDems are heading for the forced-consense style of politics that appears to be popular in both the Labour and Tory parties, or is this a one-off?

Did she encourage suicide bombers? No. Did she apologise for them? No.

You don't think that in suggesting that under similar conditions, Dr Tonge might be a suicide bomber herself goes beyond understanding into giving approval for their actions?

She said she could understand what drove them to become suicide bombers. Understanding the cause of a problem is the first step to solving it. I can understand why drug addicts commit crimes to feed their habit. Does that mean I condone drug abuse?

What do you think of the Israeli Embassy's suggestion that there are some actions that their nature we shouldn't even seek to understand?

 

[Lothian]

I have no problem with Jenny Tonge’s comments. If you look at what she was saying rather than the headlines you would see that she is saying that she understands that people in certain situations feel that they have no alternative to violence. She does not condone it. Her statement

That doesn't mean to say I condone suicide bombers, I don't. I think it's appalling and loathsome. But we have to try and understand where they are coming from and understand the situation in which they live

makes a mockery of the opinions that are now being pinned on her.

I am very disappointed in the liberal party’s attitude in asking her to step down. It was looking for a while as if they would have my support at the next election but I am now reconsidering.

P.S. I also support her stance against religious schools.

 

[JamesM]

I think this is a big fuss about nothing, but that's politics for you. It's not so much about what you say, but what you give the impression of having said.

I disagree with her analysis of what makes a suicide bomber, but I don't see why she should have got sacked. Except I can sort of see it, if only in terms of the political circus. If you give your opponents even the slightest opening to accuse you of supporting something like terrorism, they'll be all over you, generating bad publicity for you and your party (particularly for those who don't read far beyond the headlines) and you could argue that someone who makes such an elementary slip isn't a safe pair of hands.

 

[BillyTK]

I think this is a big fuss about nothing, but that's politics for you. It's not so much about what you say, but what you give the impression of having said.

I disagree with her analysis of what makes a suicide bomber,

In what way do you disagree?

but I don't see why she should have got sacked. Except I can sort of see it, if only in terms of the political circus. If you give your opponents even the slightest opening to accuse you of supporting something like terrorism, they'll be all over you, generating bad publicity for you and your party (particularly for those who don't read far beyond the headlines)

I can appreciate your logic here, but I have to say it's a sad day for British politics if we've reached such a level of simplistic, conformist politics. But it also strikes me as inconsistent position for the Liberal Party as IIRC they were against the invasion of Iraq, which leaves them open to accusation of siding with Saddam Hussein and his terrorist-supporting regime.

and you could argue that someone who makes such an elementary slip isn't a safe pair of hands.

Although it would appear that Dr Tonge slips are intentional:

In an interview with BBC News Online last year, she said she was determined to talk about the issues which she believes people really care about.

"We don't talk about the things that people are talking about in the pubs," she says.

"It's down to politicians to raise those issues....however much flak you get."