L Ron didn't even invent Scientology

[brettDbass]

If this little story here is to be believed, Old L Ron didn't even come up with the ideas that founded Scientology.

http://forums.enturbulation.org/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=4829

I don't know a great deal on this topic, certainly not enough to do any kind of analysis or critique on the claims being made here. I'm sure there are plenty of people on this forum that can, though!

Over to you guys...

 

[Darat]

I didn't think there was any doubt that most of the initial ideas for Dianetics (the direct precursor to Scientology) came from A E van Vogt with a dash of ideas from John W Campbell? And they in turn got a lot of their ideas from "General Semantics"; indeed in (if memory serves me right) it is in "The Players of Null-A" by van Vogt that there is a description of auditing/clearing (not called that in the book).

Of course A E van Vogt may have taken a lot of his ideas from the work in the link you posted but it wouldn't be suprising if Hubbard ripped from that as well.

 

[Crossbow]

I didn't think there was any doubt that most of the initial ideas for Dianetics (the direct precursor to Scientology) came from A E van Vogt with a dash of ideas from John W Campbell? And they in turn got a lot of their ideas from "General Semantics"; indeed in (if memory serves me right) it is in "The Players of Null-A" by van Vogt that there is a description of auditing/clearing (not called that in the book).

Of course A E van Vogt may have taken a lot of his ideas from the work in the link you posted but it wouldn't be suprising if Hubbard ripped from that as well.

Huh?

That suddenly makes a lot of sense.

While I have never read any of L. Ron Hubbard, I have read about him and I have read several A. E. van Vogt books as well. Anyway, I had often thought that Hubbard's stuff about aliens visiting Earth millions of years ago and getting blown up by hydrogen bombs, and volcanoes, and humans having alien souls, and other such things, all sounded like various elements that van Vogt liked to use.

Mucho thanks 'Darat'!

You are way cool.

 

[brettDbass]

I didn't even know that much, heh!

I'd always just expected that L Ron was just a Sci Fi writer who had failed to make any money out of it the conventional way because his books were so bad!

So yes, many thanks, D.

 

[Darat]

By coincidence I have my copy of The Players of Null-A to hand and here is the example I mentioned:

....

From his height of greater understanding he assured the younger individual that the affective incident must be looked at from a different angle than that of a frightened youth. Assured him that fear of pain and fear of death were emotions that could be overcome, and that in short the shock incident which had once affected him so profoundly no longer had any meaning for him. More than that, in future he would have better understanding of such moments, and he would never again be affected in an adverse fashion.

It was one more Null-A training make-shift, as had been all the others. But is was a system of self-therapy that was scientifically sound, and which would bring definite benefits.

"Relax," the voice soothed on. And because of what he was doing, every word meant, "Relax the tensions of a life time. Let all those past fears and doubts and uncertainties be discharged from the nervous system."

The effect did not depend on any belief that something would happen, though conviction made it more powerful. But it would take time. There were many suppressed memories that would have to be skillfully brought out in the open, before the therapy could be used on them.

...

That is copyrighted 1948.

 

[zooterkin]

I remember reading the Players of Null-A, though not the details as it was a while ago. About the only thing I remember was the 'cortical-thalamic pause'. Does that have an analogue in Dianetics/Scientology?

 

[Gord_in_Toronto]

When this gets spread around the 'net I can't wait to see what enturbulation results in the followers of LRon (and the followers of LRon The Revised Edition).

I have read Null-A but it was a long time ago and, not being completey "cleared", it has faded from memory. It should be in my library and will find it for a re-read.

Happy dancing Thetans to all.

 

[Macoy]

I didn't think there was any doubt that most of the initial ideas for Dianetics (the direct precursor to Scientology) came from A E van Vogt with a dash of ideas from John W Campbell? And they in turn got a lot of their ideas from "General Semantics"; indeed in (if memory serves me right) it is in "The Players of Null-A" by van Vogt that there is a description of auditing/clearing (not called that in the book).

Of course A E van Vogt may have taken a lot of his ideas from the work in the link you posted but it wouldn't be suprising if Hubbard ripped from that as well.

I read a lot of van Vogt's work a long time ago, and unfortunately have since lost my collection. I wonder if you can think of one that is a complete rip-off of Robert Graves' "I Claudius" and "Claudius The God"?

Sorry about the derail, but it's been irking me.

 

[Gord_in_Toronto]

I read a lot of van Vogt's work a long time ago, and unfortunately have since lost my collection. I wonder if you can think of one that is a complete rip-off of Robert Graves' "I Claudius" and "Claudius The God"?

Sorry about the derail, but it's been irking me.

A quick Google gives me Empire of the Atom. Which I also remember having read but from which I cannot recall a single detail. Must visit my basement library!

 

[Big Les]

Yeah, I agree that this "Scientologie" thing is pretty distantly related to "Scientology". The name and the dabbling in esotericism are about all that are similar. Hubbard may well have ripped off the name when he rebranded Dianetics, but probably just that.

Hubbard had barely a single original idea of his own, except for his own invented past. As a contemporary review I just read of Dianetics, from the Quarterly Review of Biology said;

This is a preposterous, presumptive, pretentious book that does not deserve the serious attention being given it - even in this notice. A perversion of science, because it offers nostrums for knowledge, it must be regarded as more vicious in its effects than the astronomical romances of Velikovsky and the Scully fantasies on flying saucers. In conception, it seems to have been sired by Cybernetics out of Psychoanalysis: in execution, the author betrays that he knows little-and understands less-of either.

The fact that this absurd mixture of dressed-up half-truths and bad science has achieved the status of a best-seller, that lines actually form before the doors of so-called Dianetic "auditors," and that it has become a topic for smart conversation, reflects something more than the gullibility of the public. It is a glaring indictment of the medical profession for its failure to meet the crying need for psychotherapy in this nation.

So long as the training of more and better psychiatrists is neglected, so long as the medical fraternity maintains its dog-in-the-manger attitude and refuses to admit qualified psychologists and non-medical psychotherapists to practice - just so long will such abortions and monstrosities of theory and practice as Dianetics attract an audience.
ROBERT LINDNER

 

[varwoche]

Whaddya know:

In the 1950s, van Vogt briefly became involved in L. Ron Hubbard's projects. Van Vogt operated a storefront for Dianetics, the secular precursor to Hubbard's Church of Scientology, in the Los Angeles area for a time, before winding up at odds with Hubbard and his methods. His writing more or less stopped for some years, a period in which he bitterly claimed to have been harassed and intimidated by Hubbard's followers. link

(I hugely enjoyed the null-a books once upon a time.)

 

[Macoy]

A quick Google gives me Empire of the Atom. Which I also remember having read but from which I cannot recall a single detail. Must visit my basement library!

Yes, thanks, Gord, that seems to be the sort of thing. Looks like they were all busy copying each other.

 

[fuelair]

Repeat carefully: He was only in it for the money!!!

 

[MG1962]

I didn't even know that much, heh!

I'd always just expected that L Ron was just a Sci Fi writer who had failed to make any money out of it the conventional way because his books were so bad!

So yes, many thanks, D.

Actually L Ron has always been highly regarded as one of the great pre-war authors. he was also one of the few to consitently put a million words a year into print.

Unfortunately science fiction moved on, L Ron didn't, though for a long time he still did very well with action and romance work in the pulps

 

[PBTree]

Actually L Ron has always been highly regarded as one of the great pre-war authors. he was also one of the few to consitently put a million words a year into print.

Unfortunately science fiction moved on, L Ron didn't, though for a long time he still did very well with action and romance work in the pulps

Agree.

Whilst I think he was nuttier than a fruit cake, he did write a couple of good stories. Battlefield Earth was not a bad book and his 12 (or was it 13) book series about the aliens visiting earth (can't remember the title) was hilarious. The hero of the story had more problems than the early settlers.

Suggest those in this thread who say they haven't read him, to have a go. Don't worry, you won't be turned to the dark side, or turn into a tom cruise.

 

[Darat]

Actually L Ron has always been highly regarded as one of the great pre-war authors. he was also one of the few to consitently put a million words a year into print.

...snip...

By whom? Seriously this is just not true. Have a look in a reference work such as "Science Fiction - The Gernsbeck Years" by Everett F. Bleiler that covers the likes of Amazing, Astounding & Wonder for the years '26 through to '36 and you won't find him. As for the "millions of words a year to print" I am pretty sure this isn't accurate but with the number of pulps there were at that time (non-science fiction/fantasy) I don't have any evidence beyond that being an incredible feat and everything else about his life demonstrates that one thing he wasn't was incredible!

He was just one of dozens, if not hundreds of hack writers that wrote for the many pulps - his impact prior to Dianetics is absolutely minimal.

Agree.

Whilst I think he was nuttier than a fruit cake, he did write a couple of good stories. Battlefield Earth was not a bad book and his 12 (or was it 13) book series about the aliens visiting earth (can't remember the title) was hilarious. The hero of the story had more problems than the early settlers.

Suggest those in this thread who say they haven't read him, to have a go. Don't worry, you won't be turned to the dark side, or turn into a tom cruise.

I would advise against reading any of his works, they are all without exception derivative and dire. In fact to even call them derivative is to insult the genre of science fiction!

There are literally tens of thousands better books and short stories to read before you should even consider reading any of his crap.

 

[PBTree]

By whom? Seriously this is just not true. Have a look in a reference work such as "Science Fiction - The Gernsbeck Years" by Everett F. Bleiler that covers the likes of Amazing, Astounding & Wonder for the years '26 through to '36 and you won't find him. As for the "millions of words a year to print" I am pretty sure this isn't accurate but with the number of pulps there were at that time (non-science fiction/fantasy) I don't have any evidence beyond that being an incredible feat and everything else about his life demonstrates that one thing he wasn't was incredible!

He was just one of dozens, if not hundreds of hack writers that wrote for the many pulps - his impact prior to Dianetics is absolutely minimal.






I would advise against reading any of his works, they are all without exception derivative and dire. In fact to even call them derivative is to insult the genre of science fiction!

There are literally tens of thousands better books and short stories to read before you should even consider reading any of his crap.

Didn't say they were pulizter material but if you want to understand how this dill thinks, its not a bad read. You can see his cruel streak almost from the start of most books he wrote.

And as I said, the 12 book series was just a hoot. The hero couldn't have got into more **** if he had tried. I started laughing book one and continued on from there.

Not my favourite author either but if you haven't read him, you can't judge him (book wise of course).

 

[brettDbass]

My local charity bookshop has a gargantuan Sci Fi section, and yet I've never seen any of his works in there. I did find a copy of Dianetics there though, three rows further down.
So, looks like I'll never find out if he was great or garbage.
Shame

 

[Darat]

Didn't say they were pulizter material but if you want to understand how this dill thinks, its not a bad read. You can see his cruel streak almost from the start of most books he wrote.

...snip...


Not my favourite author either but if you haven't read him, you can't judge him (book wise of course).

I like many other people with a a streak of masochistic curiosity did read Battlefield Earth when it was released so I speak from personal knowledge when I said his work was crap. I have also read a few examples of his pre-Dianetics work and that is also crap, as is Dianetics (which to my shame I have also read).

 

[PBTree]

I like many other people with a a streak of masochistic curiosity did read Battlefield Earth when it was released so I speak from personal knowledge when I said his work was crap. I have also read a few examples of his pre-Dianetics work and that is also crap, as is Dianetics (which to my shame I have also read).

As I said, if you haven't read him (which you obviously have), you can't judge him. I directed my "have a read" to those on the thread who hadn't. Just steer clear of anything other than his first few novels though.

I thought BE was a pretty good read but I suppose sitting in the middle of the Atlantic on a warship with nothing better to do, makes anything a good read.

Random House seems to think its not bad either.
"One of the most popular science fiction novels of all time, "Battlefield Earth" was also voted among the top three English-language novels of the 20th century by the Random House Modern Library Reader's Poll."