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Koran desecration

CFLarsen

Penultimate Amazing
Joined
Aug 3, 2001
Messages
42,371
When the Protestants gained power, mainly in Northern Europe, they destroyed the icons and images of biblical events, that the Catholic church is so fond of - it was actually a war going on. E.g., all chalk paintings in Denmark was covered with white chalk (today, it costs us quite a lot of money to uncover it again).

Same with Muslims. Muslims don't like icons. They don't worship images of God, they worship the word of God. You won't find paintings of religious events in mosques, like you do in Christian churches or Hindu temples.

However, you will find quotes from the Koran just about everywhere: On walls, on flags, on decorations on book covers, on carpets, and so on. The calligraphy is as highly praised as the Chinese and Japanese calligraphy is.

So, why would Muslims be upset that the Koran is destroyed? Doesn't that mean they are worshipping not the word of God, but the image of the word of God?
 
You want a logical explanation of religion? Not possible.

You want a real-world explanation? Cultural brainwashing from a very early age.
 
"the image of the word of God" is a pretty thin analogy, isn't it? How about flag burning?
 
CFLarsen said:
So, why would Muslims be upset that the Koran is destroyed? Doesn't that mean they are worshipping not the word of God, but the image of the word of God?

Perhaps they worship Allah, but respect his words enough that they don't care to see the writings trashed?

They're Muslims, not Vulcans-- emotions are allowed.

Try burning a Bible in front of a bunch of Christians. Will you be surprised if they get upset? If they do get upset, does it mean they worship the image of the the word of their god?

It's hardly new to Islam to extend some veneration to the words. Check out the invention of the illuminated Bibles, and the practice of gilding the name of God wherever it appeared in the text. It's acknowledgment that there's something special about holy books, as opposed to other writings.
 
Re: Re: Koran desecration

TragicMonkey said:
Perhaps they worship Allah, but respect his words enough that they don't care to see the writings trashed?

But that's my point: The word of God doesn't disappear because one Koran gets flushed down a toilet.

TragicMonkey said:
Try burning a Bible in front of a bunch of Christians. Will you be surprised if they get upset? If they do get upset, does it mean they worship the image of the the word of their god?

Would they get upset in the same manner?

TragicMonkey said:
It's hardly new to Islam to extend some veneration to the words. Check out the invention of the illuminated Bibles, and the practice of gilding the name of God wherever it appeared in the text. It's acknowledgment that there's something special about holy books, as opposed to other writings.

I didn't say it was new. And there's a big difference between a mass-market book and a hand-decorated one. I could understand it, if they got upset if someone had destroyed some old illuminated book. I would hate it, if the Book of Kells got destroyed. But what they are doing is getting pissed about a copy of the Book of Kells being destroyed.
 
CFLarsen said:
Doesn't that mean they are worshipping not the word of God, but the image of the word of God?

If you were really interested in answer to that question, you would search it from some Muslim sources and not here, since there are no resident teachers of Islam here.

As for Koran desacration, the verse 79 of Sura 56 prohibits all who are "unclean" from touching it. There are a lot of varying interpretations what "cleanliness" means in this context, but in the end the traditional rules for handling Korans derive their justification from it.
 
Re: Re: Koran desecration

LW said:
If you were really interested in answer to that question, you would search it from some Muslim sources and not here,

If we followed your advice, we couldn't ask any questions on paranormal matters, since there are precious few resident teachers of the paranormal here. E.g., we couldn't talk about Uri Geller, because he's not here.

LW said:
since there are no resident teachers of Islam here.

How do you know that? We have more than 5,000 posters, do you keep tabs on each and every one's CV?

LW said:
As for Koran desacration, the verse 79 of Sura 56 prohibits all who are "unclean" from touching it. There are a lot of varying interpretations what "cleanliness" means in this context, but in the end the traditional rules for handling Korans derive their justification from it.

What traditional rules? I don't see non-Muslim teachers teaching about the Koran being persecuted, or creating a fuss like this Koran-down-the-drain issue.
 
You know, I like Claus overall; he gives the gullible a much deserved tongue lashing... but sometimes he does seem almost as unworldly as the woo's.

But what they are doing is getting pissed about a copy of the Book of Kells being destroyed.

No, this isn't what they are getting pissed about at all. Let me give you a few different examples of the exact same thought processes involved.

Someone hears that a man they aren't attracted to is masturbating over them. They don't even have anything of yours, except your image in mind. Yet you respond with absolute disgust. Why?

Someone is in a pub, and they hear their favourite sporting team criticized. This criticism doesn't take any points away from your team, their history isn't changed. Yet fights often ensue because of that criticism. Why?

Someone sees an advance preview of a film, and states on the internet that the film really isn't any good. Those who haven't seen it yet, but were looking forward to doing so, proceed to flame the living shinola out of him. But their enjoyment of the film shouldn't be affected until they see the film... and yet, it is. Why?

If we must spell it out, it's because people associate disrespect to the idea of something as being the same as disrespecting the thing itself. It's nothing to do with Religion per-se, it's simply that Religion being one of the areas both extremely dear to people, and an area most focused upon this fuzzy mental understandings of things, that you see this trait most clearly.

In this particular thread's case, this extension of qualities into the mental realm of associated ideas is not even the whole story. You have the Quran being abused by what is seen as an occupying army of a different faith, which is widely suspected in that part of the world of being involved in a war against Islam itself... which may not officially be true, but there is an undeniable history of the use of cultural and religious humiliations being inflicted upon prisoners held there and around the world. And then someone comes along, and takes your religious book, and knowing what it symbolizes, knowingly abuses it all the same. Which doesn't destroy the word of God by being abused it is true, but still causes enormous offense when it is abused... Why? Well gee, I wonder why...

Honestly Claus, I'm surprised by the amount of naivety in this thread. You can try and turn it into a debate about how silly religious people are for holding the Quran in high esteem... but out in the real world, it's not about the Book at all. The people abusing the Quran do not do so because they believe it's the Word of Allah... they do it because they know you believe that, and they hate you. And the people who are getting outraged don't think the people doing the abuse believe it's the word of Allah either: They are angry because they understand you are trampling it because you know they value it. Take away the Quran, and you'd just shift the abuse and perception of why the abuse is occuring, to another symbol... such as using female underwear to humiliate someone culturally. Or decapititation of non combatants.

Understanding and context, Claus. Understanding and context; it's vital you don't lose sight of those qualities. Ironically, your first paragraph even gives the right answer;

it was actually a war going on.

And that's what's going on now too. Nothing to do with Religious hypocrisy/incoherance. Everything to do with the capacity for and ability to percieve human conflict and violence, in particular to the idea of things.
 
I don't worship books, but I'd get upset if I saw people burning them.
 
I believe we can all come to the conclusion that people in general are IDIOTS!

How many copies of the Quran are burned when they blow up each others mosques?
 
Claus, it's like someone burning your national flag - it would be an insult to your country. In the case of the Koran, it's considered a sign of disrespect to Allah and his Prophet to destroy His words on purpose.

You'd get the same reaction from a lot of Christians if you burned bibles, or effigies of Jesus, Mary or Joseph... and you'd hear from Jews if you burned copies of the Torah or burned the Star of David, etc.

These are all icons that symbolize something venerated, so destroying them is also a symbol - it's simply a symbol of negative action or intent. (And I know that you know this - you started this thread to see what folks would say. :D)
 
jmercer said:
Claus, it's like someone burning your national flag - it would be an insult to your country.

No, it isn't.

I see the US flag burned practically every week on the evening news. If it were the same, there would be riots in the US killing a dozen people every time it happened.
 
jmercer said:

You'd get the same reaction from a lot of Christians if you burned bibles, or effigies of Jesus, Mary or Joseph... and you'd hear from Jews if you burned copies of the Torah or burned the Star of David, etc.


You'd really tick off Jews if you burned a Torah. Those things are genuine vellum and written by hand, which makes them extremely expensive!
 
Weighing in here. The desecration of their Holy Book hurt me, even though I am not of their faith. I don't believe in "pissing" on anyone's faith as I believe in freedom of/from religion.

Someone said early on that this is a time/product of war...and it is. Patriarchal societies have a habit of desecrating sacred spaces and items which are considered to be sacred. That's a fact, plain and simple. The Christian Church defaced and took over almost all of the sacred spaces of pagans.

While supposed "Christians" might find it entirely acceptable to put the Koran down the toilet, they would be horrified to see their Bible flushed down the toilet. It's not that they worship the Bible, but they know what it represents to their faith.

This was a patriarchal war maneuver, and total idiocy, complete lunacy. But Patriarchal war maneuvers are both idiocy and lunacy.

Not that I think a Matriarchal society would be any better. I am an Egalitarian, not a Feminist. Having lived 50 years on this Planet Earth, I am well aware of the "Feminists" who have acted in the same manner as those they were fighting for rights. I've seen far too many Feminists buy into the Patriarchal ********e because it was POWER.

Personally, as an absolute fan of the Founding Fathers, I am appalled at the Koran being put in a toilet. I cannot imagine Ben Franklin, Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Paine, etc., doing such a thing. They did not stop short at thumbing their noses, showing their dicks to the Crown, but they did NOT ever diss anyone's faith of choice. They were a brilliant, rowdy bunch of rabble-rousers who I respect to the enth degree.

I live in New Orleans and had a run-in with an Islamic zealot more than a week ago. I wrote a letter to his employer...another Muslim. That employer of his spent two days attempting to contact me and he succeeded on the the 2nd day. It's a long story which I will not go into at this time unless asked. BUT, the truth of the matter is that the Islamic owner of the business was very upset by the behavior of his employee. The Koran states that one must abide and live by the laws of whichever country one is living in at that time. While said zealot has said to me twice "It was YOU", in his very broken English.

Whatever!!!! This zealot is a zealot, and one thing I do know is that most convenience stores have a gun under the counter. I'm not about to rile up this Islamic zealot.
 
epepke said:
No, it isn't.

I see the US flag burned practically every week on the evening news. If it were the same, there would be riots in the US killing a dozen people every time it happened.

Precisely. And my question is, why are some Muslims upset that a physical copy - an image of the word of God - is destroyed, if they don't worship images?

Do they see the Koran more like an object, on the same level as the Black Stone?

What do Muslims do with old tattered Korans?
 
Do they see the Koran more like an object, on the same level as the Black Stone?

What do Muslims do with old tattered Korans? [/B]

Claus, you are still missing the point. In the real world, it doesn't matter what Muslims do with the Quran, because they are Muslim, and thus assumed to have a respect for the Prophet; and as the Faith doesn't require worship of images, burning a tattered old Quran will not be considered a blasphemy if done by one of the Faith. But a Christian invading force destroying a Quran is, because it's assumed why they are doing it, and it's not out of respect for Allah's words.

Or to phrase it another way, a respect for Jesus' words for that matter. You are aware, I assume, that the Quran contains copious praise for Jesus, being as he is, God's Prophet before Mohammed?

http://www.isoc-unsw.org.au/talks/badawi/node2.html#SECTION00020000000000000000

Moses too, for that matter. So when you burn the Quran, you also disrespect Moses and Jesus; so why don't Muslim's laugh at the ignorance of those who profess love for Christ destroying a book which praises him? Because it's not about the book itself at all, and they know it. It's simply about "I hate you, you love this, I hate that".

Or, for that matter, like destroying the Twin Towers... the evil act which started this War of and upon symbols. Osama Bin Laden is worth billions himself, he's not exactly averse to finance... But the Towers were America's symbol of it's own finance, not his. So that's what he struck. And the Pentagon, and if he could have, the White House too. You like that, I hate you, I strike that.

And what the Quran says, or what the people in those buildings thought or had actually done, was completely ignored. Sorry Claus, but you are going down the wrong path entirely with this argument.
 
P.S.A. said:
In the real world, it doesn't matter what Muslims do with the Quran, because they are Muslim, and thus assumed to have a respect for the Prophet; and as the Faith doesn't require worship of images, burning a tattered old Quran will not be considered a blasphemy if done by one of the Faith.

...

Sorry Claus, but you are going down the wrong path entirely with this argument.

On a barren sun-baked ridge, high above Quetta city, sits a remarkable monument to the Islamic faith, and especially its more mystical local variant.

In a series of caves, painstakingly gouged by hand from the hard scrabble clay and stone hillside, two men have placed bundles of worn out, torn, water stained or generally unreadable copies of the Holy Koran. One of the men is Wali Mohammed.

He explained to me that Muslims are enjoined not to burn or dispose of old Korans, not to treat them as household rubbish.

Source

Oops.
 
epepke said:
No, it isn't.

I see the US flag burned practically every week on the evening news. If it were the same, there would be riots in the US killing a dozen people every time it happened.

Thank you for pointing out I live in a mostly-civilized country. Because if we didn't have laws and courts forbidding such things, there would be riots and people killed over this - count on it. :)
 

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