Kissinger in the Docket ?

[Dancing David]

Wouldn't that be justice.

Augusto Pinochet has once again been placed in the court by a very brave judge who wishes to try him for the kidnap and murder of nine individuals in Chile.

Shouldn't Kissinger be tried for deposing a legaly elected democratic government and installing said dictator. What if some other government did that to us, would you want to arrest their Henry K.?

 

[Roadtoad]

I'd like to see what it would accomplish. Assuming Kissinger is ever charged, (and at his age, it's unlikely), my guess is that records of his activities during the Nixon Administration would be handled with the same care and consideration that Bruce Babbitt showed when the Blackfoot Nation sued the Feds for back land-use payments. (Hey, it's like the Smothers Brothers said, if you signed it, shred it.)

 

[SlippyToad]

I'd like to see what it would accomplish. Assuming Kissinger is ever charged, (and at his age, it's unlikely), my guess is that records of his activities during the Nixon Administration would be handled with the same care and consideration that Bruce Babbitt showed when the Blackfoot Nation sued the Feds for back land-use payments. (Hey, it's like the Smothers Brothers said, if you signed it, shred it.)

It would accomplish setting a precedent. Warning to future Machiavellistic A-holes who think they can screw up a country and then just walk away from it: despite your immense wealth you will spend your declining years screening your calls and unable to visit your favorite foreign countries, and finally have to shed all your bogus dignity and sit in a courtroom while your rancid record is read back to you in the least flattering light possible.

Yeah, I'd like to see his scraggy old ass on the stand.

 

[Roadtoad]

It would accomplish setting a precedent. Warning to future Machiavellistic A-holes who think they can screw up a country and then just walk away from it: despite your immense wealth you will spend your declining years screening your calls and unable to visit your favorite foreign countries, and finally have to shed all your bogus dignity and sit in a courtroom while your rancid record is read back to you in the least flattering light possible.

Yeah, I'd like to see his scraggy old ass on the stand.

I would, too, but to what end? Sure, Kissinger has made a royal mess of such nations as Chile, Cambodia, Laos, and much of the Middle East, but so have Warren Christopher, Madeleine Albright, Zbiginew Breszinski, George Schulz, and a whole host of Secretaries of State, none of whom really even had their own nation's best interest at heart. (Perhaps one of the few who did has been Colin Powell, but then, he was a soldier first, and understood that if the State Department blew it, it would take the Defense Department to fix it.)

Sad to say, but that bogus dignity carries some real weight inside the Washington Beltway, and within some very rarified areas. It's one of the reasons you don't see people like Kissinger hanging out in places where they'll encounter "rabble" like us. These people associate with their own. If they're ever brought to trial, it's not because they were caught doing something truly unethical or illegal, but because they failed to lead, the truly unforgivable sin within that stratosphere.

 

[AtheistArchon]

Sad to say, but that bogus dignity carries some real weight inside the Washington Beltway, and within some very rarified areas. It's one of the reasons you don't see people like Kissinger hanging out in places where they'll encounter "rabble" like us. These people associate with their own. If they're ever brought to trial, it's not because they were caught doing something truly unethical or illegal, but because they failed to lead, the truly unforgivable sin within that stratosphere.

- Ah, a fellow cynic. Hi, I'm a recent convert. Where's the punch and pie?

 

[Ladewig]

I think we have enough prima facia evidence to start issuing search warrants. And if we use Special Prosecutor Starr's approach then $15 million, unlimited subpeona power, and a few years should be more than enough to show that Kissinger was conspirator in at least one international kidnapping/murder. There's no statute of limitations on murder, so let's get cracking.

 

[CapelDodger]

It would accomplish setting a precedent. Warning to future Machiavellistic A-holes who think they can screw up a country and then just walk away from it: despite your immense wealth you will spend your declining years screening your calls and unable to visit your favorite foreign countries, and finally have to shed all your bogus dignity and sit in a courtroom while your rancid record is read back to you in the least flattering light possible.

Yeah, I'd like to see his scraggy old ass on the stand.

Couldn't agree more. No more bug-outs to a villa on the Riviera or your own Holiday Inn in Florida if it all goes sh!t-shaped. No more "it vos just realpolitik" excuses. Do the crime, do the time.

 

[SlippyToad]

I would, too, but to what end? Sure, Kissinger has made a royal mess of such nations as Chile, Cambodia, Laos, and much of the Middle East, but so have Warren Christopher, Madeleine Albright, Zbiginew Breszinski, George Schulz, and a whole host of Secretaries of State, none of whom really even had their own nation's best interest at heart. (Perhaps one of the few who did has been Colin Powell, but then, he was a soldier first, and understood that if the State Department blew it, it would take the Defense Department to fix it.)

Sad to say, but that bogus dignity carries some real weight inside the Washington Beltway, and within some very rarified areas. It's one of the reasons you don't see people like Kissinger hanging out in places where they'll encounter "rabble" like us. These people associate with their own. If they're ever brought to trial, it's not because they were caught doing something truly unethical or illegal, but because they failed to lead, the truly unforgivable sin within that stratosphere.

Give me examples of what other SecStates have done that parallels Kissinger. Also, give me a reason why his "dignity" means squat to me. He's a criminal. And scum. He doesn't deserve special treatment.

 

[Roadtoad]

Give me examples of what other SecStates have done that parallels Kissinger. Also, give me a reason why his "dignity" means squat to me. He's a criminal. And scum. He doesn't deserve special treatment.

Take a look at what John Foster Dulles pulled during his tenure, then examine what happened since as a result of his meddling. I'd say he's every bit as evil as Kissinger ever was, perhaps worse because without Dulles' precedent, we might never have seen Kissinger's ilk, ever.

There's something to be said about "realpolitik." Kissinger and others occupied offices of authority which they utilized not for the benefit of the nation, but to enhance their own position within society, and ultimately, to exempt themselves when they violated the basic standards of decency necessary for any society to function in a healthy and responsible manner. Add to this that the Supreme Court has basically ruled, (and I could be incorrect on this, so if one of our legal eagles woud help out here, I'd be in your debt), that a governmental official cannot be held to account for their actions if in some manner it's been determined that they were acting in the "National Interest" or "Public Interest", and there's no way in hell that Henry "The Iillegal we do immediately, the Unconstitutional takes a little longer" Kissinger will stand trial.

I never said his "dignity" ever meant a damn thing except to those who would ultimately be called upon to first bring the charges, then to try him on them. Do you really believe, Slippy, that this man's politcal allies are going to act against him? Sorry, but I really find it hard to think of you as that naive. (Yeah, I've read some of your other posts. You're not.)

Is Kissinger an embarassment to the country? Yup. Did his actions directly result in the murder of innocents? Yup. Did he subvert democratically elected leaders in other nations? Yup. Were his actions unconstitutional? Yup. Were they potentially treasonous? Yup.

Will he ever see the inside of a courtroom?

Nope.

 

[CapelDodger]

Will he ever see the inside of a courtroom?

Nope.

But if his lawyers do - and the US legal system is nothing if not lawyer-empowering - it publicises his crimes, and sullies his declining years. It would also educate some people, and hopefully make them more wary of "statesmen". Even a little harm is worth doing to him.

 

[CapelDodger]

There's something to be said about "realpolitik."

But nothing to be said for it. From Bismarck's days, it essentially divorces morality from international relations. That's the way it was applied by the Dulles boys, Kissinger, and a generation or two of CIA, Pentagon, State Department and what-all types. Every subject was viewed in terms of the Cold War, as if that was the only thing that actually mattered in the world.

Much the same thing seems to be going on now, with the War on Terrorism the only thing that matters and morality a dangerous encumbrance.

 

[Jocko]

But nothing to be said for it. From Bismarck's days, it essentially divorces morality from international relations. That's the way it was applied by the Dulles boys, Kissinger, and a generation or two of CIA, Pentagon, State Department and what-all types. Every subject was viewed in terms of the Cold War, as if that was the only thing that actually mattered in the world.

Much the same thing seems to be going on now, with the War on Terrorism the only thing that matters and morality a dangerous encumbrance.

Yeah, just as at the height of the cold war, the drive to survive can make you do some pretty kooky things. Thank God we don't have some apologist in the white house to keep us from doing what must be done, no matter how ugly it is.

Morality is only as good as your enemy's morality.

 

[Roadtoad]

Yeah, just as at the height of the cold war, the drive to survive can make you do some pretty kooky things. Thank God we don't have some apologist in the white house to keep us from doing what must be done, no matter how ugly it is.

Morality is only as good as your enemy's morality.

I question that. Greater things have been accomplished in the Cold War by NOT compromising certain positions.

Personally, I think PJ O'Rourke had it right when he said that we beat the Soviet Union with Coca Cola and Levis.

 

[CapelDodger]

Yeah, just as at the height of the cold war, the drive to survive can make you do some pretty kooky things. Thank God we don't have some apologist in the white house to keep us from doing what must be done, no matter how ugly it is.

Morality is only as good as your enemy's morality.

This contribution helps to explain why the US screws everything up. There never was any real threat to the US from the Soviet Union. The collapse of the USSR threw the books open, it's no longer a matter of conjecture. The US - at the time of its greatest world primacy, and I include the present - chose to feel under threat. Or at least, some group chose to make people believe it. Eisenhower warned of a military-industrial complex, and Ike was a man that knew his history.

Having decided on a radically new policy of always having an enemy, the US Establishment was only capable of seeing the world in terms of that enemy. The idea that regional affairs might be entirely unconnected threatened unwanted complexity and a need to know something about the outside world and its history (which does occur even when the US isn't actually involved. Or in existence). That prospect just stinks of work, and cannot be allowed to happen.

Eisenhower's warning wasn't just meant to make a name for himself(!). He recognised the drastic change that took place in US foreign and military policy in 1942-45. And I think that what he was concerned about has actually come to pass.

If the US represents itself to the world (and history) as having a superior morality, it sets itself up for its amorality to be highlighted. If you want to argue justification for moral equality with the latest preceved threat, don't argue moral superiority in future. You will be watched.

 

[CapelDodger]

Personally, I think PJ O'Rourke had it right when he said that we beat the Soviet Union with Coca Cola and Levis.

(Not original to him.) And at the same time built 20,000 unused nuclear warheads, all those fleets of village-sized armed bombers patrolling 24/7, the nuclear subs, Vietnam, bases all around the world, and so on. Somebody missed a trick, if you ask me. And they're still missing it.

Nixon actually had it right when he said to Kruschev "You have intercontinental missiles, and we have colour TV". He was crucified on the non-existent missile-gap for it. By Democrats. Ironic, don't you think?

 

[Roadtoad]

(Not original to him.) And at the same time built 20,000 unused nuclear warheads, all those fleets of village-sized armed bombers patrolling 24/7, the nuclear subs, Vietnam, bases all around the world, and so on. Somebody missed a trick, if you ask me. And they're still missing it.

Nixon actually had it right when he said to Kruschev "You have intercontinental missiles, and we have colour TV". He was crucified on the non-existent missile-gap for it. By Democrats. Ironic, don't you think?

Personally, I think there was a real threat. That it never materialized was not a matter of a lack of will on the part of the Soviets, (particularly as we saw in much of the Third World, and their willingness to foment revolution simply for revolution's sake, along with the bloodshed and human rights violations that went along with it), but perhaps more a matter of a lack of opportunity.

That we overbuilt, and in the end, sacrificed our children and our parents for our own security is the real irony. All those things we were screaming that we were out to protect, and ultimately, we destroyed it.

A couple of books too few Americans have read: One called American Ground Zero, (at least I think that's the name. Don't recall the author, but the content was unforgettable), and At Work In The Fields Of The Bomb by Robert Tredici. Far too few understand the full sacrifice made for our "security," which has been squandered by the actions of people like Henry Kissinger.

 

[Roadtoad]

Interesting we're having this discussion now: I'm reading an article I just got today about Bush and his stated commitment to Natural Law and Democratic institutions. After I finish it, I'll have more to say, but it's interesting to note that while people are readily making the comparison between Afghanistan and Iraq and Japan and Germany, one thing that should be noted is that both Japan and Germany had very literate populations, and a strong industrial base which made the conversion to a Democratic society a lot easier.

Thoughts?

 

[gnome]

Yeah, just as at the height of the cold war, the drive to survive can make you do some pretty kooky things. Thank God we don't have some apologist in the white house to keep us from doing what must be done, no matter how ugly it is.

Morality is only as good as your enemy's morality.

Funny how the drive to survive, and "doing what must be done" generally also involves lying to the public, and to elected representatives, about what you're doing. To support this is essentially to argue that democracy itself is sometimes a luxury to be dispensed with when under threat.

 

[Roadtoad]

Funny how the drive to survive, and "doing what must be done" generally also involves lying to the public, and to elected representatives, about what you're doing. To support this is essentially to argue that democracy itself is sometimes a luxury to be dispensed with when under threat.

One point, Amigo, where you and I are in complete agreement.

One of the reasons I object to anyone claiming that Oliver North is anything but a liar, a thief, and a cheat.

 

[Frank Newgent]

"The Case of the Missing Letter in Foreign Affairs: Kissinger, Pinochet, and Operation Condor" by Kenneth Maxwell is here.

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