KANA - "Israel not to blame"

[webfusion]

An initial IDF inquiry has revealed that Israel may not have been to blame for the explosion that killed more than 50 civilians in the southern Lebanese village of Kfar Kana on Sunday.
--- http://www.israelnationalnews.com/news.php3?id=108783

• Air Force Commander Amir Eshel left open the possibility that Hizbullah terrorists blew up the building or that an unknown cause set off explosives which were stored in the structure.

Whadda ya know -- Israel might not have caused that building to explode after all. Another deal like the Gaza beach tragedy which wasn't Israel's fault.

 

[Azure]

I'm not going to jump all over this story and show it to all my Israeli blaming forum friends.

Not because I disagree, but some people have a problem with statements coming from the Israeli military.

 

[webfusion]

Who besides the Israeli military has information about what the IAF was doing and when?

It's like the gaza beach --- the IDF said it wasn't firing from the naval ships offshore at that time. The palestinians showed video of naval ships firing, to 'support' their claim.

An independent forensics investigation of the fragments of shrapnel (removed from gaza victims in Israeli hospitals) determined they were conclusively not 155mm. The palestinians said they were 155mm (and they produced a huge stockpile of leftover 155mm fragments to 'illustrate' their claim) .

The IAF has video -- I wanna see it.
Be patient, we'll get to see it.

 

[Azure]

Who besides the Israeli military has information about what the IAF was doing and when?

It's like the gaza beach --- the IDF said it wasn't firing from the naval ships offshore at that time. The palestinians showed video of naval ships firing, to 'support' their claim.

An independent forensics investigation of the fragments of shrapnel (removed from gaza victims in Israeli hospitals) determined they were conclusively not 155mm. The palestinians said they were 155mm (and they produced a huge stockpile of leftover 155mm fragments to 'illustrate' their claim) .

The IAF has video -- I wanna see it.
Be patient, we'll get to see it.

I agree with you.

But everytime I post evidence released by the Israeli military, it gets called a setup to make Israeli look good.

 

[Mephisto]

Who gets the blame for the video of all the people in bunkers or rubble right now? I can't tell if they're Palestinian or Israeli. They're the ones that suffer most.

 

[Pardalis]

Unless real evidence is found, I think this sounds very unlikely.

It reminds me of the "controlled demolition" conspiracy theories of 9/11.

 

[Leif Roar]

I'm not going to jump all over this story and show it to all my Israeli blaming forum friends.

Not because I disagree, but some people have a problem with statements coming from the Israeli military.

Speaking generally, I'm dubious of statements from any military that finds itself or its soldiers innocent or blameless. Both because of the obvious conflict of interest of any body that investigates itself, and because military organisations are particularely vulnerable to "looking after their own" because of the emotional ties that exist within a military organisation, both vertically along the command structure (ties of loyalty and resposibility) and horizontally within a unit (ties of "blood-tested friendships" and unit cohesion.) I also consider other organisations with similar structures and where the emotioanl ties are similarly strengthened by shared dangers, such as police forces or fire fighting units, to be poor at introspective investigations of this kind.

Now, speaking of this particular statement, I see no reason to be particularly doubtful of it, mostly because it actually says very little (and a great deal less than some of the posters on this thread seems to believe it does.) The statement does not exonerate IDF for all or part of the responsibility for the explosion, not does it actually offer any evidence against the IDF being responsible for the explosion. The statement is actually limited to saying that the evidence, as gathered and evaluated at this time, does not conclusively prove that the IDF is responsible. I.e. it's only saying "It's not beyond doubt that the IDF didn't cause it" and it's not saying "there's reason to believe the IDF did not cause this." The title of this thread, KANA - "Israel not to blame, is not an accurate description of the statement.

 

[webfusion]

Who gets the blame for the video of all the people in bunkers or rubble right now? I can't tell if they're PalestinianLebanese or Israeli. They're the ones that suffer most.

Corrected your comment --- but your point is the same, as there is also video of palestinians in gaza who are being bombed by the IDF, and photos of Israelis in Sderot who are being bombed by the palestinians with Qassems, and the news media just runs video after video scece, with no captioning and no contextual definitions, it all just runs together in one huge "film noir"

 

[webfusion]

Leif Roar is absolutely on-target.

The thread title is not an accurate quote of what the IDF is saying.

It is only what I'm saying --- I am of the opinion that Hezbollah had their munitions in the building and they blew up much later, after the strike caused a fire that eventually reached the munitions.

Pardalis -- what sounds unlikely? That the Hezbollah is to blame for having stored explosives in this building that went "BOOM" a few hours after the IDF raid? According to the IDF, the sites targeted were houses occupied by Hezbollah cells that launched Katyusha rockets into Israel in recent days.
They do store their munitions in basements of buildings, and the IDF has been bombing these storehouses and depots for a few weeks now all over Lebanon, or have you missed all that?

 

[The Fool]

Leif Roar is absolutely on-target.

The thread title is not an accurate quote of what the IDF is saying.

It is only what I'm saying --- I am of the opinion that Hezbollah had their munitions in the building and they blew up much later, after the strike caused a fire that eventually reached the munitions.

Pardalis -- what sounds unlikely? That the Hezbollah is to blame for having stored explosives in this building that went "BOOM" a few hours after the IDF raid? According to the IDF, the sites targeted were houses occupied by Hezbollah cells that launched Katyusha rockets into Israel in recent days.
They do store their munitions in basements of buildings, and the IDF has been bombing these storehouses and depots for a few weeks now all over Lebanon, or have you missed all that?

Well I guess its enough to establish some form of deniability....You need to work on better stories as I don't think the whitehouse is interested in funding this sort of stuff much longer.

 

[gumboot]

Unless real evidence is found, I think this sounds very unlikely.

It reminds me of the "controlled demolition" conspiracy theories of 9/11.

Although it seems the actual events are as yet indetermined...

Why does this sound very unlikely? Hizbollah are operating from within the civilian population, yes? They must store their munitions somewhere, yes?

We will have to wait for video, of course.

Any video showing a secondary explosion closes this case for good.

-Andrew

 

[peptoabysmal]

You would think that Hezbollah learned in 1996 that humans make lousy shields. Oh wait, you don't think that Hezbollah intended for this to happen, do you?

 

[Pardalis]

In response to Webfusion and Gumboot, I think it's very unlikely that innocent civilian families would willingly reside somewhere where weapons are stored. I think something like that doesn't get unnoticed. But I could be wrong, I acknowledge I don't know anything about this issue.

As you both said, let's wait for the evidence.

 

[gumboot]

In response to Webfusion and Gumboot, I think it's very unlikely that innocent civilian families would willingly reside somewhere where weapons are stored.

I agree completely. And yes, let's wait for the video.

-Andrew

 

[Leif Roar]

Leif Roar is absolutely on-target.

The thread title is not an accurate quote of what the IDF is saying.

It is only what I'm saying --- I am of the opinion that Hezbollah had their munitions in the building and they blew up much later, after the strike caused a fire that eventually reached the munitions.

Why do you hold that belief? There's not been presented a shred of evidence to indicate that this building housed munitions, so the only reason I can see for you holding his belief is that it's convenient for your larger position on the situation in Lebanon. In the absence of supporting evidence, why should anyone else care about your personal belief of what the facts are?

(And seriously -- "A fire that eventually reached the munitions"? That schenario isn't even consistent with the known facts. Do you reall think none of the civilians would have had the wherewithal to flee from a burning building?)

According to the IDF, the sites targeted were houses occupied by Hezbollah cells that launched Katyusha rockets into Israel in recent days.

Do you have a cite for that claim? I haven't seen it made anywhere.

 

[gtc]

Well do the people of Southern Lebanon have much choice? I mean they are going to want to hide in the safest building in the area. But that is also where Hezbollah are going to want to hide their weapons. I think we should wait too.

 

[Azure]

So what video are we talking about?

The Hezbollah video, or the Israeli video?

Or the one doctored by the CT's?

 

[Eos of the Eons]

What I don't understand is why all hezbollah military stuff is mixed into civilian areas. The Iranian leader has been saying "death to Israel" all year long, so a war was imminent, but why mix all military stuff in with civilians?

Why aren't the Lebanese pissed at hezbollah for using the civilians as shields?

 

[webfusion]

What I don't understand is why all hezbollah military stuff is mixed into civilian areas. The Iranian leader has been saying "death to Israel" all year long, so a war was imminent, but why mix all military stuff in with civilians?

Why aren't the Lebanese pissed at hezbollah for using the civilians as shields?

Because over 70% of the population of Lebanon is happy with what the Hazbollah is doing since it is the "Party of God" and they've all been invited!

http://www.dailystar.com.lb/article.asp?edition_id=1&categ_id=1&article_id=74334

 

[webfusion]

Why do you hold that belief? There's not been presented a shred of evidence to indicate that this building housed munitions

• Israeli Air Force Staff chief Brig-Gen Amir Eshel said Sunday he could not account for the time gap between the air strike over Qana village at 0100 Saturday night and the building’s collapse six or seven hours later.

Something blew up. Maybe at some point, we'll know what it was.
My money is on Hezbollah rockets that were stored in the basement.

Anyway, Brig. Eshel went on to say in his press conference:
Qana village was targeted as a busy Hizballa command and logistical center, from which 150 rockets had been fired into Israel on a daily basis.

According to the IDF, the sites targeted were houses occupied by Hezbollah cells that launched Katyusha rockets into Israel in recent days.
Lief Roar asks about this claim:
Do you have a cite for that claim? I haven't seen it made anywhere.

Sure, no problem, ace.
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/744695.html
Ze'ev Schiff and Amos Harel, Haaretz Correspondents, and Agencies

• PM Olmert said that Qana was used as a Hezbollah base for launching hundreds of rockets at Israel.

(four to six 'graphs up from the bottom)