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Just a Thought Experiment

Max560

Critical Thinker
Max560
Joined
Jan 19, 2003
Messages
256
Imagine a replica of the universe we currently inhabit. The two universes are identical in every respect, with one difference.

In one of the two universes, there is no god of any sort.

In the other, there is a god(s). For those of you who happen to be believers, assume that this god(s)'s nature matches perfectly with your current beliefs about the nature of your god(s).

What are your answers to the following questions:

1. What would be the clearly observable and or demonstrable differences between the two universes?

2. Which of the two universes are we currently inhabiting?

Please try to use your answers to question 1 to support your answer to question 2.
 
1) No

2) The one on the left.

Sorry, I can't take thought experiments seriously. They seem to be useful for testing logic and reasoning, or developing further questions, but not much else.

Garbage in, garbage out. Nothing in, nothing out.
 
I think you're missing one thing. For a religious person, it might not be possible to have a universe without god(s). If their belief is that having god(s) is a prerequisite for creating a universe such as ours, you are asking them to accept the premise that there is not god to show that there is no god, or at least no way to demonstrate that there is a god.
 
First, you are postulating an observer outside both universes, so where can this hypothetical observer be said to exist? Let's assume that the observer exists in a super-universe from where he or she can reliably observe both proposed universes.

Second, even in the universe without a God, sentient beings will invent a God to explain the things that they don't understand, until they develop science.

If we assume that there are no miracles, it would therefore be impossible to distinguish between the two universes. If we allow miracles, then it will be easy to distinguish the two universes, because the universe with a God will contain events that are only possible due to the existence of God and aren't possible according to the scientific laws of that universe.

So it all depends on whether the postulated God of the universe that has a God is capable of miracles or not. If the postulated God is omniscient, omnisentient and omnipotent (like the Christian God for example), then yes - you would certainly be able to tell the universes apart. You just have to look for the miracles.

If the proposed God is not omniscient, omnisentient and omnipotent, then you would not.

I disagree with fishbob - I think thought experiments are a reasonable way of enquiring after a topic, so long as the thought experiment is framed in the right way.
 
Max,

Not sure where you are heading with this, but my answers are.....

Max560 said:
1. What would be the clearly observable and or demonstrable differences between the two universes?
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None

Max560 said:
2. Which of the two universes are we currently inhabiting?
Click to expand...
No way of telling

BJ
 
Oops, I forgot question 2. Which of the two universes are we now inhabiting?

Personally I believe that there are no miracles, so it would be impossible to tell. We are living either in the universe with no God, or in a universe where God is not omniscient, omnisentient and omnipotent - the difference is pretty meaningless as far as I am concerned.

Someone unlike me who has a strong belief in miracles would claim that the evidence of the miracles they have seen clearly indicate that we are living in a universe with an omniscient, omnisentient and omnipotent God.
 
Which of the universes is the one where Spock has a goatee?
 
God is either part of the current reality we live in or He's not. I don't know what else you could be referring to here?
 
Ryokan said:
Holy pooh! That means we're turning into the Terran Empire at any time now!
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That's right. And soon small black goatees will be mandatory for everyone!
 
Beth said:
That's right. And soon small black goatees will be mandatory for everyone!
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Down with the clean-shaven!

I would also mandate eye-orbit surgery. Hard to look like an evil-twin without squinty eyes, you know.
 
Iacchus said:
God is either part of the current reality we live in or He's not. I don't know what else you could be referring to here?
Click to expand...

So your answer to question one would be what?


Your answer to question two would be what?
 
Donks said:
I think you're missing one thing. For a religious person, it might not be possible to have a universe without god(s). If their belief is that having god(s) is a prerequisite for creating a universe such as ours, you are asking them to accept the premise that there is not god to show that there is no god, or at least no way to demonstrate that there is a god.
Click to expand...

Yes, this could cause some difficulties for someikjjjjo (<---typing assist from my cat), but I would hope that since this is a thought experiment only, one could still attempt to answer the question without permanent theological damage.
 
We've been through this before, and fairly recently.

The believer's answers go like this:

1) The observable differences between the godded universe and the no-god universe is that the no-god universe cannot possibly exist.

2) Since you can't inhabit something that doesn't exist, we obviously know that we are living in the godded universe.


If these answers don't make sense to you, consider that there are people to whom any other answer is just as senseless as this answer is to you.
 
Max,

Max560 said:
[Replying to Iacchus:]
So your answer to question one would be what?
Your answer to question two would be what?
Click to expand...
If you don't respond to those who have answered, you can't expect to get answers from those who haven't. ;)

BJ
 
I think your question defeats any possible answers.

If there are two identical universes there would be no difference between them. How could we tell one from another? Adding a god to one of them would mean that the god could not change anything within the it's universe other wise the universe with the god would no longer be identical to the one without a god. Unless your trying to lead the answer by saying a universe with a god is no different from a universe with out a god.
 
BillyJoe said:
Max,

If you don't respond to those who have answered, you can't expect to get answers from those who haven't. ;)

BJ
Click to expand...

Sorry about that.

Thank you for your response.
 
uruk said:
I think your question defeats any possible answers.

If there are two identical universes there would be no difference between them. How could we tell one from another?
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The only difference between the two universes in this thought experiment is that One has a god associated with it, and the other does not. So in this regard, the two universes would not be identical. If my initial wording was ambiguous, it was not intentional.

uruk said:
.....Unless your trying to lead the answer by saying a universe with a god is no different from a universe with out a god.
Click to expand...

No leading intended. If you feel that both universes would tend to be similar to each other, that's ok.

If you feel that they would differ in some clearly observable and or demonstrable way, that's ok too. Just describe the differences, and use them to support your answer to the second question.
 
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