A friend asked my opinion about investing in a juice plus franchise. I instinctively shy away from anything to do with multi level marketing and have reservations about the magic vitamin market. A google search however didn't dig up anything particularly bad about Juice Plus, need a reality check from all you skeptics out there....
luchog
Neo-Post-Retro-Revivalist
It's pretty much the usual MLM scam, and vitamin woo. I don't have the links handy; but I do recall that one of the issues with Juice+ is that the concentrated squeezin's that it uses are very high in sodium. Of course, the obvious answer would be that you're far better off eating the actual fruit; because with the extract stuff, you lose half of the important stuff from the fruit, like fiber. Better for you in the long run, and cheaper too.
pgwenthold
Penultimate Amazing
- Joined
- Sep 19, 2001
- Messages
- 21,821
Note that the other issue with juice is that it contains a large amount of the sugar. Moreover, you also drink a lot more juice than for a single piece of fruit. An average orange contains about 2 oz of actual juice (1/4 cup). So a 16 oz bottle of OJ are basically flavored sugar water from 8 oranges.
icerat
Philosopher
On the positive side -
(1) Juice Plus deserves credit for being one of the few nutritional companies that actually publishes clinical research for their products. There's a list on their website of peer-reviewed published articles. Most were funded or partly-funded by the company or it's associates, so the usual caveats about that, but they seem to be legitimate studies. It's products are pretty much concentrated fruit & vegetables, so there shouldn't be any major surprise they might have health benefits.
(2) Details on their compensation plan are hard to come by but unlike the scammier end of MLM they appear to have a real product and focus on building a legitimate customer base for the products rather than just network building and seeing what sticks.
(3) Been around a long time, member of the Direct Selling Association
(4) Seem to have a decent training/education system behind their offering
(5) 120 day satisfaction guarantee to customers
On the negative side -
(1) From my quick analysis some aspects of the compensation plan might encourage recruiting and inventory loading to earn large commissions faster. That's an aspect in some MLMs that causes problems as you've now got people buying products to earn bonuses instead of for their inherent worth, so you're in pyramid territory. That's not to say it's actually happening, but that aspect is there.
(2) The product would require some learning to market. It's neither the cheapest nor most expensive on the market in it's category, but at the higher end, so you'd need to learn the competitive advantages to market it.
(3) that means, like any business where you have to go out and find customers for a "premium" product, you have to deal with a lot of rejection. Not such thing as a product that sells itself.
(4) their "money back guarantee" on the virtual franchise starter kit seems to be on unopened products. Many competitors in the MLM arena offer it even on used products.
(5) you have to deal with people who "instinctively shy away from anything to do with multi level marketing"
Last edited:
I've worked with MLM's and my experience is that the products are never as good as they advertise and the investment is a bad deal for well over 90% of the people who pony up the money. It's not that they don't make much money, it is that they actually lose money. Let that sink in. How many jobs are so bad that you lose money by working them?
MLM comp plans require so many people to get paid out of each sale that the prices have to be inflated even more than simple retail. So, they try to sell a product that is "proprietary" which usually means "not recognized as effective by the industry in question." That way you can't really price check against the competition. For this particular product you can price check against known effective alternatives in the market: vitamins or fresh fruits and vegetables.
Everyone thinks they will be the one in a thousand who actually makes a decent amount of money on this stuff, but it takes a certain disregard of social norms and personal relationships to do so. Everyone you meet becomes a mark and everyone will soon get that vibe from you. Either that or you have to surround yourself with others who are "in the biz" which may have an even worse impact on your life.
I have met the high rollers who are making money on MLMs and even the best of the best are not making close to what the CEOs of the MLMs are making, much less the actual owners. Compare that to real commissioned sales people in legitimate industries and you will find the opposite is often true. I knew a regional VP of sales for a software company who turned down a C-Level promotion because he would be making less money once his commissions were cut.
My suggestion is that if you want to be involved with an MLM be the owner or work for the company itself, otherwise you are getting screwed. If you want to be in sales, working a car lot would be more rewarding at the end of the month than an MLM.
icerat
Philosopher
This myth was debunked more than 30 years ago in FTC vs Amway yet continues to be raised. The number of people getting paid out of each sale averaged much the same as traditional business, and was often less. It seems to arise from a misunderstanding of how legitimate MLM actually works, instead starting from the assumption they operate like pyramids and then calculating accordingly.
I've had traditional businesses where pretty much every person I know has been a potential client. For some reason I don't see them all as "a mark". I've also built two successful networks and not seen everyone as "a mark". Indeed, to do so is generally a fast track to failure in any type of sales business.
And I've met "high rollers" who are making more (much more) than the CEOs of the companies they represent.
And I know a VP of marketing for an MLM company who quit and started at the bottom as a rep. Making big money, by the way, is not the major motivator for most people who build network marketing businesses.
Is there a money back guarantee on your investment in setting up your own MLM company? Can you set your own hours and work from home, or choose not to work at all, if you're an employee for the company?
There are different attractions to company ownership (which I do and have done for nearly 2 decades), being an employee (which I have done, but not for many years) and building a network marketing business (which I also have done in the past and am currently doing again).
If you stop selling cars, but one of your old customers comes in and buys a new one when you're not there, do you get any commission? If you're a good sales person and are after immediate decent cash for the work you put in, then starting any kind of business, including an MLM, is not a sensible option. You are indeed better off being a car salesman. That's not the attraction.
Last edited:
I just searched "juice plus complaints" and found lots of reading material. Check your google, it may need tuning.
icerat
Philosopher
And neither of us have even touched a tiny percentage of MLM experiences, which are undoubtedly huge and varied.
Yeah, answering someone's question on JREF sure is evangelical
According to the DSA they aren't all that varied. Failure is so common as to be comical.
icerat
Philosopher
The vast majority of them seem to be click bait for people trying to promote some "lead system" or competitor, not about JP itself. Barrett on QuackWatch has a rather old article with his usual mix of valid issues and rather strange claims (like "much of the protective effect of fruits and vegetables is due to their fiber content"???)
icerat
Philosopher
I thought you weren't going to engage?
But sure, I'll bite. Post the evidence. Be sure to ensure you mention how you define "failure".
xjx388
Penultimate Amazing
- Joined
- Dec 1, 2010
- Messages
- 11,392
There is no scientific evidence to back up the idea that concentrates like the ones in Juice Plus or Amway's Double X have benefit. There are marketing claims and nothing more.
MLM schemes lose money for the vast majority of participants. This is a fact that proponents will try to spin ("The people who lost money just weren't working the system!") but cannot deny. Consider your chances before investing money into such schemes.
icerat
Philosopher
How about you address the actual published peer-reviewed papers?
Barrett seems to think fruit and vegetables are primarily important for the fiber. Is that your position?
We've been through this furphy ad nauseum. Can't be bothered going through it again.
I thought you weren't going to engage?
But sure, I'll bite. Post the evidence. Be sure to ensure you mention how you define "failure".
changed my mind, can't be bothered engaging in that discussion again, Dr Keith.
Last edited:
xjx388
Penultimate Amazing
- Joined
- Dec 1, 2010
- Messages
- 11,392
If that's all you took away from Dr. Barrett's article, then you need to go back and read it better.
In short, the research they publish shows that supplementation with JP increases the level of certain vitamins, antioxidants, etc in the blood. But so what? Does this increase result in positive health outcomes? No evidence suggests that it does. Further, you can get increased levels by taking a cheap multivitamin/multimineral. And we definitely have research now that shows that people without nutritional deficiencies do not benefit from nutritional supplements.
Given that, we do know that there are health benefits from increased fiber consumption -the one part of the plant that JP is removing.
Overall, you can get the same increase in much cheaper supplements and even better results by simply eating more fruits and veggies. Thus, JP is a scam.
Its real simple: how many people who sign up to distribute end up making money? So low as to be almost zero.
The OP enquired as to its investment potential. The only rational response is that there is none.
Last edited:
icerat
Philosopher
You don't think that absurd position throws in to question he's entire expertise to be commenting on nutrition?
You spent more time on this than me, I only looked at a couple of the studies. The first one showed a decrease in homocysteine levels. If you're disputing the benefits of lowering homocysteine levels then you're simply displaying your ignorance of the field as well. The next study I read (a pilot) found decreased blood pressure and improved atherosclerosis burden. Again, a very positive outcome. The third found a 20% decrease in common cold symptoms
Hmm, call me cynical, but that's three out of three that show outcomes more than what you say - I'm starting to actually wonder if you actually read their research as you claim ...
Seriously?
Yeah, that's why people don't need fruit and vegetables, they can just take a cheap multivitamin/multimineral. Are you willing to be a test subject for say a year?
You're right. And statins are useless because people without high cholesterol levels don't benefit from them.
We also know there are health benefits from many micronutrients, and not just the ones found in cheap supplements.
You can get better results than statins much more cheaply through changes in diet and lifestyles. Thus, the medical profession is a scam.
So, tell me this xjx318, do you and everyone you know eat seven or more different fruit & veg a day?
Please provide -
(a) the number of people who sign up "to distribute" and make money
(b) the number of them who make money, including retail sales profit
And yet people apparently do make money from JuicePlus.
Invest, huh? Are you a venture capitalist, perhaps with an MBA?
I'm always amazed when amateurs think they can step into some slot and perform even marginally well. It's almost like you are asking about a friend who suggests you might want to start overhauling transmissions on the side - you know, as a business opportunity. And why not? I look around and see plenty of transmission shops that seem to be doing fairly well.
Beerina
Sarcastic Conqueror of Notions
- Joined
- Mar 3, 2004
- Messages
- 34,368
Are transmission shop franchises running around nationally trying to coerce you into setting one up regardless of your abilities?
I don't know about this particular one, but in general MLM schemes do their damndest to try to get the ignorant hopefuls to sign up and start buying stuff ("...which you will then turn around and sell!")
It's core to their business model to rely on ignorance to make the sale to the leaf salespeople.
I don't know about this particular one, but in general MLM schemes do their damndest to try to get the ignorant hopefuls to sign up and start buying stuff ("...which you will then turn around and sell!")
It's core to their business model to rely on ignorance to make the sale to the leaf salespeople.
icerat
Philosopher
Are transmission shop franchises available for a few bucks, refundable, that you can use to get your work done cheaper? Is the best way to open a successful transmission shop by opening one and learning on the job?
Why on earth would they do that? Legitimate MLMs (DSA membership is a good starter) all offer money back guarantees. If they were "relying on ignorance" there would be significant amounts of buyers remorse and significant refunds. There is no evidence this occurs.
Contrary to your claims of how things work "in general", we market our health products by running free seminars teaching people the basics of health and nutrition (which, btw, means starting with more activity and more fruit & veg, not supplements!).
We market our skin care products by running (free) small group clinics were we teach people about the skin and the science behind skin care. We market our weightloss products by offering free education and support groups. We market our business opportunity with free information meetings and open seminars were people can come and learn what we do. We also lend out material to people to help them learn what we do and encourage them to learn as much as possible. etc etc etc
That's "relying on ignorance"?
If you "rely on ignorance" to recruit people you sign up people who do nothing and disappear, wasting your time and money as well as theirs. If you "rely on ignorance" to sell products you sell them to people who never re-order and never refer other potential users. If instead you educate people you end up with happy customers and sustainable business.
Last edited:
Since Juice Plus+ is not a member of the Direct Selling Association (search their member list here: https://www.dsa.org/), you should avoid them.
(Thanks to icerat for the tip.)
(Thanks to icerat for the tip.)