JREF (the board) is not a cult

[Suezoled]

Well, believers come in, get slammed, accuse JREF of having a cult mentality. If a believer is civil, they receive civil responses, for the most part. But also, they are told things they don't like to hear. They get angry and accuse JREF of being cult-like.

In my opinion, JREF is not a cult. A cult seeks to seduce a person into their way of thinking, they offer feel-good situations/emotional gratification, they encourage group mentality and acceptance.

But my definition of cult may be rather limited.

 

[Matabiri]

But my definition of cult may be rather limited.

"Cult - a small, unpopular religion
Religion - a large, popular cult"

I forget the source.

 

[CFLarsen]

Michael Shermer, in his book "Why People Believe Weird Things", characterizes a cult this way:

Veneration of the leader
Glorification of the leader to the point of virtual sainthood or divinity.

Inerrancy of the leader
Belief that the leader cannot be wrong.

Omniscience of the leader
Acceptance of the leader's beliefs and pronouncements on all subjects, from the philosophical to the trivial.

Persuasive techniques
Methods, from benign to coercive, used to recruit new followers and reinforce current beliefs.

Hidden agendas
The true nature of the group's beliefs and plans is obscured from or not fully disclosed to potential recruits and the general public.

Deceit
Recruits and followers are not told everything they should know about the leader and the group's inner circle, and particularly disconcerting flaws or potentially embarrassing events or circumstances are covered up.

Financial and/or sexual exploitation
Recruits and followers are persuaded to invest money and other assets to the group, and the leader may develop sexual relations with one or more of the followers.

Absolute truth
Belief that the leader and/or the group has discovered final knowledge on any number of subjects.

Absolute morality
Belief that the leader and/or the group has developed a system of right and wrong thought and action applicable to members and nonmembers alike. Those who strictly follow the moral code become and remain members; those who do not are dismissed or punished.

(Source: "Why People Believe Weird Things", Michael Shermer, p.119-120)

I think we can safely say that Randi is not believed to be inerrant around these parts. He is often criticized, also by skeptics. As for absolute truth, there is always evidence to change the mind of a skeptic. Morality? Nah....I think we disagree just like everyone else.

 

[Garrette]

This is not a cult...

This is not a cult...

This is not a cult...

This is not a cult...

Yes, Amazing One, I will send money...


Lame jokes out of the way, JREF is most certainly not a cult of any kind, though I would wager (without evidence, mind you) that there are some skeptics who would/do quote Randi as if he's faultless. But I would further wager that they are few and pass quickly through that phase of skepticism--though whether it's into a healthier skepticism or a revision toward belief, I can't say.

My slightly informed opinion is that the rough and tumble here is off-putting to most folks. Those who are used only to non-challenging comfort and uncritical support of their beliefs have no experience by which to judge what must appear at times to be anarchic, rude, cliqueish, esoteric, and unforgiving.

 

[Clancie]

Posted by Suezoled

A cult seeks to seduce a person into their way of thinking, they offer feel-good situations/emotional gratification, they encourage group mentality and acceptance.

Well, I've never called JREF a cult, but there is some stifling of the spirit of intellectual inquiry here. And it almost seems cult-like the way that newcomers with paranormal beliefs (or open minds) can expect to be slammed, right out of the gate.

There's also imo often an unfortunate emphasis on conformity and "right thinking" here --for example, I found many of the responses to Two Shanks' recent announcement about becoming a Christian kind of disturbing. Isn't it a bit cult-like to perpetuate an idea of what is (and what is not) "correct thinking" (that means, not just telling someone about the skeptical method, but expecting them to also reach the actual acceptable-to-the-JREF-majority conclusions ?

There is quite a bit of conformity "preached" here on some topics. And I think the "personal slamming" could inhibit the free expression/examination of ideas as well. So...in that respect, it shares some similarities with the cult mentality, imo.

 

[Suezoled]

I figured Clancie would be ringing in soon, advising she thinks believers are not treated nicely, and if many individual people beleive the same thing, even in an unorgannized manner, it's a form of oppression.

 

[CFLarsen]

Well, I've never called JREF a cult, but there is some stifling of the spirit of intellectual inquiry here.

As usual, you only make vague accusations. Examples, please?

And it almost seems cult-like the way that newcomers with paranormal beliefs (or open minds) can expect to be slammed, right out of the gate.

They are asked for evidence, if they make claims. Right out of the gate.

There's also imo often an unfortunate emphasis on conformity and "right thinking" here --for example, I found many of the responses to Two Shanks' recent announcement about becoming a Christian kind of disturbing. Isn't it a bit cult-like to perpetuate an idea of what is (and what is not) "correct thinking" (that means, not just telling someone about the skeptical method, but expecting them to also reach the actual acceptable-to-the-JREF-majority conclusions ?

There is absolutely no emphasis on conformity and "right thinking" here, quite contrary. Here, people from all over the world meet and discuss, well, just about anything. Religion, politics, current events, paranormal claims, skepticism... I think this board is as non-conform as could possibly be.

There is quite a bit of conformity "preached" here on some topics. And I think the "personal slamming" could inhibit the free expression/examination of ideas as well. So...in that respect, it shares some similarities with the cult mentality, imo.

Yeah, you have a point here. The "personal slamming" you have done to quite a few members here could inhibit free expression/examination of ideas. Fortunately, it does not.

Are you stifled in any way here, Clancie? If not you, who have been stifled?

 

[CFLarsen]

I figured Clancie would be ringing in soon, advising she thinks believers are not treated nicely, and if many individual people beleive the same thing, even in an unorgannized manner, it's a form of oppression.

I, for one, would very much like to know who is oppressed, stifled, or in any other way prevented from speaking his/her mind here. I think it is a very serious accusation that need hard evidence.

 

[Clancie]

Posted by Suezoled

I figured Clancie would be ringing in soon, advising she thinks believers are not treated nicely, and if many individual people beleive the same thing, even in an unorgannized manner, it's a form of oppression.

Suezoled,

Since you don't seem to get the points I make in my posts, would you mind at least not paraphrasing them to make them say things that I've never said?

 

[Oleron]

Well, I've never called JREF a cult, but there is some stifling of the spirit of intellectual inquiry here. And it almost seems cult-like the way that newcomers with paranormal beliefs (or open minds) can expect to be slammed, right out of the gate.

I agree to an extent. The JREF is not a cult in any way but can be rough on believers.

I think this is partly inevitable as the majority of users are very skeptical and can't be expected to simply accept weird beliefs' without argument.

As a newbie I have noticed that some of the most active and interesting threads are started by believers, especially the more extreme individuals. For example check out Karen Boesens recent thread.

I think it is wrong to come down too hard on these believers (of whatever flavour) because the forum would be a less lively place without them. After all, debate is what we are here for.

 

[Ignatius]

I wouldn't call it a cult but there are certainly aspects that are cult-like. Any and every group is certainly prone to adopting a herd mentality. There is certainly nothing about the board that would prevent it from becoming a cult, but I wouldn't characterize it as a cult just yet.

To James Randi's credit, he has been personally attacked on this board and has never taken action to stop it (although it is hard to say how much that has to do with indifference to what goes on on this board and how much it is his personal belief in a free marketplace of ideas).

 

[deBergerac]

Of course everyone is allowed to be here but if someone states something more than a personal belief i.e. knowledge of some sort, it is very likely that they will be asked to provide evidence. This might come as a new experience to some believers and I would hope that senior members of the forum would ask for evidence in a polite manner from these new members.
But I think it is much better to ask people for evidence when they present a claim than to just agree with them

 

[Ladewig]

Persuasive techniques
Methods, from benign to coercive, used to recruit new followers and reinforce current beliefs.

Deceit
Recruits and followers are not told everything they should know about the leader and the group's inner circle, and particularly disconcerting flaws or potentially embarrassing events or circumstances are covered up.

Go to any cult or semi-cult message board and type in a message claiming that the board's sponsor is a cult. The take out your stopwatch and count the minutes until your post is removed. WWu777's posts (among others) still being here can be considered evidence that JREF is not a cult.

 

[Suezoled]

Suezoled,

Since you don't seem to get the points I make in my posts, would you mind at least not paraphrasing them to make them say things that I've never said?

Clancie,

Well, I've never called JREF a cult, but there is some stifling of the spirit of intellectual inquiry here. And it almost seems cult-like the way that newcomers with paranormal beliefs (or open minds) can expect to be slammed, right out of the gate.

There's also imo often an unfortunate emphasis on conformity and "right thinking" here --for example, I found many of the responses to Two Shanks' recent announcement about becoming a Christian kind of disturbing. Isn't it a bit cult-like to perpetuate an idea of what is (and what is not) "correct thinking" (that means, not just telling someone about the skeptical method, but expecting them to also reach the actual acceptable-to-the-JREF-majority conclusions ?

There is quite a bit of conformity "preached" here on some topics. And I think the "personal slamming" could inhibit the free expression/examination of ideas as well. So...in that respect, it shares some similarities with the cult mentality, imo.

You said people are stiftled, specifically believers are stifled. You said people pressure others to a certain conformity of thinking at times. These responses, you said, are cult-like.

Those two sentences sum up what you are saying, sans the dancing around.

If I am missing your point please clarify it. Regardless, your posts are subject to interpretation, and to request I not comment on them at all is stifling to my intellectual inquiry.

 

[Clancie]

Posted by Ladewig

Go to any cult or semi-cult message board and type in a message claiming that the board's sponsor is a cult. The take out your stopwatch and count the minutes until your post is removed. WWu777's posts (among others) still being here can be considered evidence that JREF is not a cult.

If a cult is at the far end of the "open intellectual inquiry" spectrum...and JREF doesn't fit it....is that the only part of the spectrum that one wants to be concerned about and work hard to avoid?

Posted by Suezoled

...to request I not comment on them at all is stifling to my intellectual inquiry.

Again, Suezoled, you're indicating I "requested" something which I did not, in fact, request at all.

I didn't "request you not comment on them (my posts) at all". I requested that you not keep -inaccurately paraphrasing- what I post and indicating that I've said things which I did not say (see the above for -another- example. ).

 

[Aoidoi]

We are all individuals!

I'm not

Ssssshhhhhhh!

[/LoB]

 

[Ladewig]

If a cult is at the far end of the "open intellectual inquiry" spectrum...and JREF doesn't fit it....is that the only part of the spectrum that one wants to be concerned about and work hard to avoid?

I like the idea of a spectrum. I am unsure precisely where to put JREF ( or more accurately the JREF message board) on the continuum, but I am confident that it is not so close to the far end of the spectrum that it can be called a cult. Is there room for improvement? Yes. Is it a cult? No.

 

[Suezoled]

If a cult is at the far end of the "open intellectual inquiry" spectrum...and JREF doesn't fit it....is that the only part of the spectrum that one wants to be concerned about and work hard to avoid?
[/b]
Again, Suezoled, you're indicating I "requested" something which I did not, in fact, request at all.

I didn't "request you not comment on them (my posts) at all". I requested that you not keep -inaccurately paraphrasing- what I post and indicating that I've said things which I did not say (see the above for -another- example. ). [/B]

How can I keep from not accurately paraphrasing if I don't learn how to do it by correction? I'm reading it one way. As I said before, correct me if I'm wrong. [insert obnoxious little rolleye smiley Clancie is so fond of using here]

 

[Wrath of the Swarm]

Isn't it a bit cult-like to perpetuate an idea of what is (and what is not) "correct thinking" (that means, not just telling someone about the skeptical method, but expecting them to also reach the actual acceptable-to-the-JREF-majority conclusions ?

Ah, but given

1) the scientific/rational method of thought, and
2) the available evidence,

We can conclude that reaching certain conclusions is not valid. We may one day find that the conclusions themselves are valid, but at present there is no rational way people could have reached those conclusions. Therefore, since the scientific method is fairly static and unless they can produce significant new evidence, we conclude that they reached their conclusions without thinking rationally or examining the available evidence.

 

[voidx]

Well, I've never called JREF a cult, but there is some stifling of the spirit of intellectual inquiry here. And it almost seems cult-like the way that newcomers with paranormal beliefs (or open minds) can expect to be slammed, right out of the gate.

This ignores the positive posts though. For every hardcore JREF'er that might slam a newcomer for extolling a well debated stance already on this board, there are always posters who calmly and politely try and point out why they disagree with the stance, and what those common points are. If people are too thin-skinned to set aside the brusquely worded posts and instead reply to the more level-headed ones, well, then, that's their problem in my opinion.

There's also imo often an unfortunate emphasis on conformity and "right thinking" here --for example, I found many of the responses to Two Shanks' recent announcement about becoming a Christian kind of disturbing. Isn't it a bit cult-like to perpetuate an idea of what is (and what is not) "correct thinking" (that means, not just telling someone about the skeptical method, but expecting them to also reach the actual acceptable-to-the-JREF-majority conclusions ?

In my opinion your concentrating on the minority of opinion in that thread. For the most part as TwoShanks labelled himself as an atheist before, most people were simply curious as to what caused his conversion. This as far as I read was the majority of the sentiment expressed in that thread. There were a few posters with obviously more harsh comments. But to take that thread as an example of being a bit cultish is to highlight the negatives and dismiss the positive comments in that thread. I have to say I disagree with you here.

There is quite a bit of conformity "preached" here on some topics. And I think the "personal slamming" could inhibit the free expression/examination of ideas as well. So...in that respect, it shares some similarities with the cult mentality, imo.

This is my over-riding problem though. Any community by nature will have a level of conformity to it, based upon the majority of the group represented. But there are always extremes. Among skeptics here I think we're well represented among those extremes, and there are many that extoll that nature of open discussion. Is the level of "preaching" and "personal slamming" here worse than it is on other boards? The JREF board does not have to be perfect, but it is much better overall than many other boards I've been to in the past. It seems to me that you want to hold the JREF board to a higher standard than other forums, and if it cannot, and inevitably does not meet that standard well then it might be a tad "cultish" at times. In my opinion you tend to concentrate on the negatives of this board, rather than its positives.