Jon's Europhobic rant.

[Jon_in_london]

Hello, Im going to rant a bit.

A lot of people say we (the UK) shouldnt leave the EU because our 'free trade' will be endangered. What frickin free trade is this of which they talk?

If I went to Calais and bought 50 cases of plonkjolais I would be charged import duty on my return to Dover. So whats this 'free trade' nonsense about? How can there be free trade when you get slapped with duty for trying to trade?

Another thing- lots of europoodles say 'we cant leave the EU because of all the subsidies we get' to which I say BWAHAHAHA!! because its is in fact the UK that subsidises the EU. In fact for every £ in subsidy we get from them, we pay them £2.80.

Can anybody explain to me why my country is allowing itself to get shafted by this franco-german self-agrandisment scheme?

 

[Q-Source]

A lot of people say we (the UK) shouldnt leave the EU because our 'free trade' will be endangered. What frickin free trade is this of which they talk?

Jon,

Free trade is not the only reason why the UK shouldn't leave the EU. The European Union is a customs union, which means that any country in the union can import and export products without paying any tariffs for them, and they hold the same tariffs scheme with the rest of the world. THe EU holds free trade agreements with other countries. So, if the UK decides to get out of this, it could happen that:

a. some imports from the UK -that previously had zero tariff- would start paying tariffs to get into the EU.

b. the UK wouldn't be allowed to benefit from the EU free trade agreements with the rest of the world.

c. as a consequence of a and b, UK exports would be more expensive than before. In the short run it means that the current balance would fall and in the long run, it would imply a fall in the production of export goods.

As I said before, the international trade is only one of many other reasons why the UK shouldn't leave the EU. I could mention other problems such as a reduction in foreign direct investment, a rise in interest rates, a fall in employment, a fall of national production, etc.....

Most of the people who oppose the EU is not because they really understand what are the disadvantages or advantages of it but because they still have this romantic feeling about sovereignty and patriotism.



Q-S

 

[Graham]

Hello, Im going to rant a bit.

A lot of people say we (the UK) shouldnt leave the EU because our 'free trade' will be endangered. What frickin free trade is this of which they talk?

If I went to Calais and bought 50 cases of plonkjolais I would be charged import duty on my return to Dover. So whats this 'free trade' nonsense about? How can there be free trade when you get slapped with duty for trying to trade?

Read that back to yourself and pay particular attention to who it is that;s slapping you with duty . . .

 

[Tony]

Serious question Jon. Would you, as a Brit, rather belong to the EU or the US? Perhaps the Anglo sphere?

 

[Matabiri]

Working hours

It's interesting to note that some people keep going on about Britain having the longest working hours in Europe. But they're much shorter than American working hours...

 

[rikzilla]

Jon,

Free trade is not the only reason why the UK shouldn't leave the EU. The European Union is a customs union, which means that any country in the union can import and export products without paying any tariffs for them, and they hold the same tariffs scheme with the rest of the world. THe EU holds free trade agreements with other countries. So, if the UK decides to get out of this, it could happen that:

a. some imports from the UK -that previously had zero tariff- would start paying tariffs to get into the EU.

b. the UK wouldn't be allowed to benefit from the EU free trade agreements with the rest of the world.

c. as a consequence of a and b, UK exports would be more expensive than before. In the short run it means that the current balance would fall and in the long run, it would imply a fall in the production of export goods.

As I said before, the international trade is only one of many other reasons why the UK shouldn't leave the EU. I could mention other problems such as a reduction in foreign direct investment, a rise in interest rates, a fall in employment, a fall of national production, etc.....

Most of the people who oppose the EU is not because they really understand what are the disadvantages or advantages of it but because they still have this romantic feeling about sovereignty and patriotism.



Q-S

It should be noted Jon, that if a nation is willing to pedal it's sovereignty and subvert it's people's patriotism, then that nation should at least get something in return. The EU offers precious little. IMHO the UK should lobby to join NAFTA. At least it would get something more tangible than a hand in it's collective pocket.

-zl

 

[Shane Costello]

Originally posted by Q-Source:
Free trade is not the only reason why the UK shouldn't leave the EU. The European Union is a customs union, which means that any country in the union can import and export products without paying any tariffs for them, and they hold the same tariffs scheme with the rest of the world. THe EU holds free trade agreements with other countries. So, if the UK decides to get out of this, it could happen that:

I'm pretty sure that some non-EU countries in Europe such as Switzerland and Norway have negotiated free trade agreements with the EU. Britian should also in theory be able to do this.

As I said before, the international trade is only one of many other reasons why the UK shouldn't leave the EU. I could mention other problems such as a reduction in foreign direct investment, a rise in interest rates, a fall in employment, a fall of national production, etc.....

You should expand on these. How exactly would withdrawal from the EU lead to a decline in foreign direct investment, rise in unemployment etc?

Most of the people who oppose the EU is not because they really understand what are the disadvantages or advantages of it but because they still have this romantic feeling about sovereignty and patriotism.

As opposed to the sensible feeling about "Europe" as a single entity?

I don't think people are opposed to a Europe of free trade and (relatively) free movement of people. It's just that a lot of us detect motives in the move towards European unity that we aren't comfortable with.

 

[Q-Source]

I'm pretty sure that some non-EU countries in Europe such as Switzerland and Norway have negotiated free trade agreements with the EU. Britian should also in theory be able to do this.

Yes, in theory the UK could do this. But free trade is not the only reason why it is not sensible to think about leaving the EU.

You should expand on these. How exactly would withdrawal from the EU lead to a decline in foreign direct investment, rise in unemployment etc?

One thing leads to the other. A nation that is not competitive in terms of exports good cannot attract foreign direct investment. In fact, this is one of the biggest problems of the UK, its inability to bring foreing investment to the country. In the last decade, the goverment has paid foreigners to invest in Britain (especially in the industry of electronics) and has failed because the rate of return is not enough to keep them in the country.

A fall in production of exports goods leads to unemployment in this sector. I cannot expand here because I need to get data to back up my claims.

I don't think people are opposed to a Europe of free trade and (relatively) free movement of people. It's just that a lot of us detect motives in the move towards European unity that we aren't comfortable with.

Explain your motives.

 

[Jon_in_london]

One thing leads to the other. A nation that is not competitive in terms of exports good cannot attract foreign direct investment. In fact, this is one of the biggest problems of the UK, its inability to bring foreing investment to the country. In the last decade, the goverment has paid foreigners to invest in Britain (especially in the industry of electronics) and has failed because the rate of return is not enough to keep them in the country.

So being in the EU obviously hasnt helped much then?

Perhaps the reason the rate of return is so low is that we are drowning in the quagmire of ridiculous EU regulations?

Perhaps the reason UK manufacturing does so badly is because EU regulations on government intervention and subsidy seems to apply to the UK and not to France and Germany?

Do you want me to even start with the CAP and fishing?

PS: If the UK is so miserably, pathetically inadequate, why is our economy outperforming the rest of the EU?

 

[geni]

IMHO the UK should lobby to join NAFTA. At least it would get something more tangible than a hand in it's collective pocket.

Nothing to stop the UK being a member of both.

 

[Shane Costello]

Originally posted by Q-Source:
In fact, this is one of the biggest problems of the UK, its inability to bring foreing investment to the country.

I think you'll find that the UK is quite adept at attracting foreign investment. Much more so than the unreformed economies of Europe

In the last decade, the goverment has paid foreigners to invest in Britain (especially in the industry of electronics) and has failed because the rate of return is not enough to keep them in the country.

This is quite a claim. I await the relevant data.

Explain your motives.

Simple. I'm fortunate enough to live in a state with an unbroken history of democracy, that drew upon an earlier tradition of democratic politics. While this state has had a far from illustrious past, the constitutional framework in place has allowed any wrongs to be rectified peacefully. Compare this to developments in Europe over the last century. This state has recently followed economic policies that have reduced unemployment (the bane of this nation since independence) and greatly increased prosperity. Forces within the EU attacked the means by which we did it (for instance calling our taxation system "unfair") and seek to deprive us of the means to continue to do so. In short, I don't see any practical reason for European unity, and suspect that this agenda is being advanced for the advantage of the few and the detriment of the many.

 

[aerocontrols]

Nothing to stop the UK being a member of both.

Individual EU countries cannot establish their own trade agreements, as doing so is a breach of the Treaty of Rome.

 

[crackmonkey]

I'm surprised that there's not more outrage at the way Germany and France are steering the EU in a way that benefits them. I think Jon has some valid points here.

 

[Drooper]

In the last decade, the goverment has paid foreigners to invest in Britain (especially in the industry of electronics) and has failed because the rate of return is not enough to keep them in the country.

God I hate people who sprout CRAP.

OECD FDI stats


total Foreign Direct Investment inflows 1990-2002

UK $US 551 bn
Germany $US 399 bn
France $US 371 bn
Italy $US 81 bn
Spain $US 192 bn


The UK has been the favoured home for FDI over the last 10 years.


And on the prospects of FDI outside the EU. This would depend on the domestic policies in the UK.

I would suggest that repealling much of the EU's required legislation, for example the Working Time Directive, the UK would become an increasing favourable home for FDI.

 

[Jon_in_london]

Individual EU countries cannot establish their own trade agreements, as doing so is a breach of the Treaty of Rome.

And unfortunately the UK, unlike France and Germany, actually has to comply with the treaties it signs.

 

[BillyTK]

Simple. I'm fortunate enough to live in a state with an unbroken history of democracy, that drew upon an earlier tradition of democratic politics.

The Republic of Ireland is about what, 80 years old isn't it?

While this state has had a far from illustrious past, the constitutional framework in place has allowed any wrongs to be rectified peacefully.

Is there still that Catholic influence, as seen in, for instance, anti-abortion legislation?

Compare this to developments in Europe over the last century. This state has recently followed economic policies that have reduced unemployment (the bane of this nation since independence) and greatly increased prosperity. Forces within the EU attacked the means by which we did it (for instance calling our taxation system "unfair") and seek to deprive us of the means to continue to do so. In short, I don't see any practical reason for European unity, and suspect that this agenda is being advanced for the advantage of the few and the detriment of the many.

European unity? Surely some mistake?

Originally posted by rikzilla
IMHO the UK should lobby to join NAFTA. At least it would get something more tangible than a hand in it's collective pocket.

I'd like to get a second opinion from that. Maybe from Canada or Mexico?

 

[Q-Source]

From my point of view, the most negative effects of leaving the EU or not joining the Euro are not related to international trade but to foreign investment. This could have a deeper impact in the british economy. In fact, in the last year, the drop of foreing investment has been quite significant and scaring.


“Britain's share of foreign investment in Europe has collapsed since the introduction of the euro, according to new figures from the European Commission.
In the three years since the single currency was launched, Britain received 15 per cent of total cross-border investment in the European Union. In the two years before the launch, Britain's share averaged 25 per cent. This corresponds to £108 billion of 'lost investment', say pro-euro campaigners.”
http://observer.guardian.co.uk/euro/story/0,10818,967807,00.html


This interesting statistics show how foreing investment has fallen dramatically in the last two years. Compare year 2000 with 2002.


Net foreign direct investment in the UK. Million pounds
(Net investment includes unremitted profits)

From Europe
1998: 22892
1999: 39398
2000: 53893
2001: 17213
2002: 19142

From the USA
1998: 18596
1999: 15953
2000: 12741
2001: 15025
2002: -3011 (minus indicates disinvestment)

From the total World
1998: 44877
1999: 54376
2000: 78495
2001: 36555
2002: 18533

Source: www.statistics.gov.uk


The most important source of foreign investment for the UK comes from Europe, which in 2000 represented 68.5% of total investment. So, having a different scheme will inevitably lead to deficits in the capital account. Most of the foreign investment in Britain goes to the export sector, so if we link this situation with my previous explanation of the effects in trade, then I wonder what kind of incentives an investor will find in a country that rejects the benefits of a customs union.


Q-S

 

[Jon_in_london]

This interesting statistics show how foreing investment has fallen dramatically in the last two years. Compare year 2000 with 2002.
blah blah blah

And of course, all of this is entirely due to the euro and has nothing whatsoever to do with the tech bubble bursting and the global economic downturn?

I suppose FDI has massively increased in the peurozone in the meantime?

If you can show me stats that demonstrate that while FDI has declined in Britain while increasing in the peurozone then I may grant that you have a point.

And thats change in FDI in an absolute sense not as a percentage of intra-european GDP or somesuch economogobblydygook.

 

[Jon_in_london]

......then I wonder what kind of incentives an investor will find in a country that rejects the benefits of a customs union.

Oh, I dont think anyone really objects to the 'customs union'. Its being gobbled up by corrupt, greedy power-happy peurocrats, most of whom no Briton has ever even had the opportunity to vote for and who certainly dont have this country's best interests at heart. Its losing the right to be policed by our own police, to be tried according to our legal system, to have our army answerable to our government instead of the above mentioned peurocrats.
Its the ability to set economic parameters that suit the UK, not France and Germany. Its the ability to have the freedom to negotiate trade pacts with other countries and trading blocs accoring to our best interests, not someone else's. Its being ruled by OUR government that WE voted for and who are ANSWERABLE to us and that we can HOLD ACCOUNTABLE when they screw up! IN SHORT, ITS OUR FREEDOM AND OUR INDEPENDENCE!

But I guess this is all just romantic patriotic nonsense to you?

 

[mjh36]

Can anybody explain to me why my country is allowing itself to get shafted by this franco-german self-agrandisment scheme?

I wish I could. For all of France and Germany posturing, their strongarming or the current EU and those with whom it does business is transparent in its attempt to bleed money from the rest of the continent that they may continue their grand social experiment. The fiery rhetoric of Jacques Chirac is fueled by the fact that he knows where his country is headed economically, and he must do and say what is necessary to plug the dyke for as long as he can. Germany is very close behind in the same boat.

Oddly, the entire EU thing reads like a paraphrased version of European history for the last 500 years. Economic and cultural issues in France and Germany, England remaining the Amazing Little Sovereign Island That Could, and mounting distaste by the Franco-German alliance at the British continuity and success. Am I the only person who has read a history book? Funny thing is, for once, France and Germany are on the same side of the beligerent coin.

But sorry lad, I cannot explain why Britain is in a hurry to put its sovereignty on a shelf so that France and Germany can benefit from it.