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John Galt or George Bailey

Distracted1

Philosopher
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Dec 14, 2007
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I happened to be perusing the JREF thread about Ayn Rand the other night while my television was on.
"Its' a Wonderful Life" came on, and it hit me that two literary charachters could'nt be more philosophically different.
Who is more necessary to the success of the species?
Galt? or Bailey?
 
Both are so unconnected to reality that it's impossible to say.

Galt is a ridiculous superman and Bailey is unbelievably essential. The discussion on Galt was covered in the other thread. The portrayal of Bailey assumed that, had he not existed, no one else in town would have taken the initiative to solve any of the problem that he faced. Not only that, it assumed the worst possible consequences for his non-existence.

Additionally, the Bailey universe is as unrealistic as the Galt universe. I grew up in small towns and I know that no one, no matter how great their achievements, is so well loved that the mere knowledge that they are in trouble will spur spontaneous donations to keep their business afloat. Now, with a slick media campaign behind him, people could have been influenced to donate as Extreme Home Makeover tends to do, but that wasn't the scenario.

The difference? Bailey exists in a fictional universe designed to stir fuzzy holiday feelings. Galt is an attempt to convince you he could be real.
 
This is an argument of the collective versus the individual.

I; from my study of history, see the individual as generally beneficial to society as a whole. History teaches us the the collective always destroys society.
 
No, societies are groupings of individuals. The manner in which that society functions can be a collective.

Societies are more than geographical assignations of population. Societies are groups of individuals who identify as a group and work to promote that group's interest to a greater or lesser extent. It is impossible to construct a meaningful definition of society without the concept of common interests.
 
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Societies are more than geographical assignations of population. Societies are groups of individuals who identify as a group and work to promote that group's interest to a greater or lesser extent. It is impossible to construct a meaningful definition of society without the concept of common interests.

Do you really think that the majority of individual people in any society go to work daily "to promote the group's interest"?
 
Do you really think that the majority of individual people in any society go to work daily "to promote the group's interest"?

Yes, although I doubt they'd phrase it as such. In America at least, the knee-jerk hatred of anything with a socialist, communist, or collectivist label has obscured the understanding of the reality, purpose and functioning of a society.

At a basic level, this is why work is valued over theft. The group of individuals who comprise society has decided that their common interests will be served better if people work to produce goods and services rather than fight and steal resources from each other. Every time someone goes to work rather than attempting a mugging or a burglary, they are promoting the common interests of the group.

You find more examples as the situations become more complex. The group of individuals who comprise society have decided it benefits them as a whole to have as many educated individuals in society as possible. For that reason, we support children's education regardless of the financial ability of their parents to provide that education. At least that's the goal currently. There's an increasing movement that says the group's benefit in supporting that education is outweighed by the costs. In my personal opinion, I think this is less an instance of reevaluating societal goals and more of an ideological opposition to the concept of society itself.

The idea that we as a country are members of a group and as a group should create policies and systems to promote our group as much as possible; that is the idea of a society. This isn't anti-capitalist; properly applied and regulated capitalism has been one of the best policies for promoting societal well being. The problem comes when people confuse means with ends. When capitalism becomes the goal, people have lost sight of the fact that it is an economic system meant to maximize the benefits to society and not a value system whose promotion is valuable in and of itself.

People losing touch with reality like this has a self-fulfilling prophecy effect. When people no longer see themselves as part of the group for decision making processes, when they no longer see themselves as included in the benefit analysis, when they no longer see government as a body invested with rights by the people and delegated to make decisions where it is impractical to include every individual member of society in deliberation; when these things happen, people cease to participate as members of society. When people cease to participate as members of society, it leads to the separations of identity listed above.

There are three possible reactions people can have to this separation:

1)Reject society. This is no longer possible. It used to be that when you felt separated from the rest of the group of individuals in your society, you could pack up your bags, recruit some followers, and find a patch of wilderness to set up a new society. This is no longer possible, for obvious reasons. The result is that you get anarchists and libertarians on message boards calling for separation from and destruction of society from residences that society has constructed, fed by food society has produced, communicating over a medium that society facilitates. It becomes an exercise in absurdity.

2)Assert themselves in society. Form political parties and other organizations starting at grass roots levels that change what it means to be a member of society. Instead of calling for society to be split and destroyed, call for it to change to something more acceptable. This is more realistic, but once enough people have chosen strategy #1, this becomes impossible as well. Or it could be that the ideas for change are actually fringe, the mass of society is not feeling disassociated from the group and it is impossible for that reason. The case where change in society is possible is when enough people disagree with the current policies the group has enacted, but still feel enough connection to the group to engage in a process of change.

3) Destroy society. This is the Troofers, militias, White Supremacist, tax protestor, style option. Man the barricades and fight the power! Don't only reject the group of individuals that you feel is going the wrong direction; kill them and scatter their influence. Create a new society out of your fellow disaffected on the burning rubble you leave behind. I don't think I need to spell out the problems with this.
 
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Thank you for your time and your thoughts presented here.

Yes, although I doubt they'd phrase it as such. In America at least, the knee-jerk hatred of anything with a socialist, communist, or collectivist label has obscured the understanding of the reality, purpose and functioning of a society.

I strive to be a student of history, and history teaches us that society generally moves toward the collective and that it consistently fails.

At a basic level, this is why work is valued over theft. The group of individuals who comprise society has decided that their common interests will be served better if people work to produce goods and services rather than fight and steal resources from each other. Every time someone goes to work rather than attempting a mugging or a burglary, they are promoting the common interests of the group.

I disagree. Work is valued by the individual because they are receiving the proceeds of their labor. The value of the particular proceed is based on the individual. This is an inherently human attribute. Think of art. Some artists value the monetary gain from their work, others value the painting itself exclusively. Few artists value the gain for society of their work.

What you write of concerning the individual producing for the common interest is but a by-product of the individuals self interest.

You find more examples as the situations become more complex. The group of individuals who comprise society have decided it benefits them as a whole to have as many educated individuals in society as possible. For that reason, we support children's education regardless of the financial ability of their parents to provide that education. At least that's the goal currently. There's an increasing movement that says the group's benefit in supporting that education is outweighed by the costs. In my personal opinion, I think this is less an instance of reevaluating societal goals and more of an ideological opposition to the concept of society itself.

Please, with the goals of societal education promoting the general good. The public education system was created and is currently used to create non-thinking button pushers. This is good for the collectivist and bad for the individual thinker. The current system is in reality designed to stifle the thinker thus preventing competition with the current elite.

The idea that we as a country are members of a group and as a group should create policies and systems to promote our group as much as possible; that is the idea of a society. This isn't anti-capitalist; properly applied and regulated capitalism has been one of the best policies for promoting societal well being. The problem comes when people confuse means with ends. When capitalism becomes the goal, people have lost sight of the fact that it is an economic system meant to maximize the benefits to society and not a value system whose promotion is valuable in and of itself.

The benefit for society can only be stolen for so long from the producers before they stop producing.

People losing touch with reality like this has a self-fulfilling prophecy effect. When people no longer see themselves as part of the group for decision making processes, when they no longer see themselves as included in the benefit analysis, when they no longer see government as a body invested with rights by the people and delegated to make decisions where it is impractical to include every individual member of society in deliberation; when these things happen, people cease to participate as members of society. When people cease to participate as members of society, it leads to the separations of identity listed above.

All grouping are temporary and arbitrary. The government should only be a tool used to secure the individuals inherent rights. Once the government begins to use its power to take from one individual and give to another the government becomes a tool of tyranny.
 
Both are so unconnected to reality that it's impossible to say.

Galt is a ridiculous superman and Bailey is unbelievably essential. The discussion on Galt was covered in the other thread. The portrayal of Bailey assumed that, had he not existed, no one else in town would have taken the initiative to solve any of the problem that he faced. Not only that, it assumed the worst possible consequences for his non-existence.
QUOTE]

That describes the story-line of the film, not the character George Bailey.
Bailey had no way of being certain that anyone else in the town would have taken the initiative to solve the problems he faced. He decided that it was his responsibility to address the problems-because he was able to address them.

Do you really think that the majority of individual people in any society go to work daily "to promote the group's interest"?
Is it all or nothing?
Is it not possible to go to work daily to promote my own interests, give thought to what is in the interest of the collective and occasionally subsume my own interests to those of the collective?
Don't we all do that when we don't turn those we percieve as being less capable than ourselves into prey?
 
Is it all or nothing?
Is it not possible to go to work daily to promote my own interests, give thought to what is in the interest of the collective and occasionally subsume my own interests to those of the collective?
Don't we all do that when we don't turn those we percieve as being less capable than ourselves into prey?

The people that you deal with are not prey. The goal of the individual should be; and for most people is, to trade to the mutual benefit of both parties. Those that act as predator will not last long without the benefit of government protection.

When the collective takes from an individual on the terms of the collective this is theft. Shall the man down the street take your food only because he has none and it not be called theft. Why would you allow this authority to the collective? The words you may use to describe the action will not change the facts of the action.





ETA: Put this symbol / before the last "quote" and it will be correct. If I am not explaining this well you can click the quote button on anyones post and you will see an example.
 
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Is'nt it the goal of the individual to trade for the best interest of the individual? Accepting that it "should" be for mutual interest seems to be accepting that the collective has value.
Does'nt accepting from the collective obligate me to give something back when needed?
 
Is'nt it the goal of the individual to trade for the best interest of the individual? Accepting that it "should" be for mutual interest seems to be accepting that the collective has value.
Does'nt accepting from the collective obligate me to give something back when needed?

Your best interest in the long term is always served by making an equitable trade with another individual. Thinking from a selfish point of view this will further your ability to make trades with others and that particular individual in the future.

Who decides what is needed by who from who? Here is where we enter the beginning of the game of inequitable trades which cause theft and create resentment.
 
Your best interest in the long term is always served by making an equitable trade with another individual. Thinking from a selfish point of view this will further your ability to make trades with others and that particular individual in the future.

Who decides what is needed by who from who? Here is where we enter the beginning of the game of inequitable trades which cause theft and create resentment.
/

Who decides which trades are "equitable"?

It seems to me that "whatever the market will bear" encourages inequitable trades. Also, that human history (such as my understanding of it allows) is one of inequitable trades. (Manhattan Island for a handful of beads ,pay for this indulgence and be forgiven your sin, "Try this crack" et..al.)

Furthermore, the globe is a closed system. I am party to trades that I did not agree to when my neighbor dumps GHB onto the ground and makes the water I depend on undrinkable, or decides to sell firearms to criminals. Doese'nt a reasonable person agree that the collective has the obligation to act in these situations?

I also am not convinced that possession automatically confers ownership, How is it that I have food when the man down the street does not? If one can arbitrarily decide that is it not right for him to excersize his physical superiority and take my food, can't one arbitrarily decide that it is not right for me to withhold it from him?
 
I don't think Galt and Bailey are so opposite. Would Galt have let his brother drown? Did Bailey demand to be supported by the efforts of others? Both are unrealistic, but they are not so different in principle. Galt opposed 'leeches' using force to live off of the productive, Bailey on his own initiative and with his own resources decided to help out people during tough times. One is hard-edged and uncompromising and the other is fuzzy and helpful, but opposites of Galt can easily be found in the novel, and Bailey doesn't resemble them much.
 
From the Wikipedia entry on Ayn Rand's "Atlas shrugged".
The enigmatic John Galt is the male hero of Atlas Shrugged, and typifies the Randian hero. By trade, he is an engineer, and has developed a revolutionary new motor powered by ambient static electricity that has the potential to change the world. However, in disgust at the collectivization forced upon him at his workplace at the Twentieth Century Motor Company, he goes on strike, depriving the world of his invaluable invention.

A RANDIAN HERO????? Who designs static electric motors????&%*%%$! That's one odd book.

By comparison, George Bailey seems like a pretty regular guy.
 

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