Jews offended by Pope

[SteveGrenard]

So while another Christian leader, the Archbishop of Canterbury opines on ways of appeasing Moslems by allowing some form of Sharia into England, the Pope it seems was busy recently insulting Jews. I wonder how the Moslems would like it if the word "Jews" below was replaced by the word "Moslems." Why shouldn't the Moslems be enlightened to accept Jesus Christ as their savior as well? Buddhists and Hindus could be next.

Conservative Rabbis to Vote on Resolution Criticizing Pope’s Revision of Prayer

By NEELA BANERJEE
Published: February 9, 2008

The revision of a contentious Good Friday prayer approved this week by Pope Benedict XVI could set back Jewish-Catholic relations, Conservative Judaism’s international assembly of rabbis says in a resolution to be voted on next week.

The prayer calls for God to enlighten the hearts of Jews “so that they may acknowledge Jesus Christ, the savior of all men.”

The draft resolution states the prayer would “cast a harsh shadow over the spirit of mutual respect and collaboration that has marked these past four decades, making it more difficult for Jews to engage constructively in dialogue with Catholics.”

On Tuesday, the pope released new wording for the prayer, part of the traditional Latin, or Tridentine, Mass.

Before the Second Vatican Council, also known as Vatican II, the Good Friday Mass in Latin prayed for the conversion of Jews, referring to their “blindness” and calling upon God to “lift a veil from their hearts.”

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/09/u...=th&adxnnlx=1202566253-rLEBZD3jAVrisZ1EV5qQcA

 

[Magyar]

nothing like an abject lesson to the al quida et. al. that blowing themselves and others up pays.

 

[hgc]

Hey Jews! The pope is cooking up some powerful mumbo-jumbo, so don't interfere. Your veiled hearts are just the right added ingredient with eye of newt, toe of frog, wool of bat and tongue of dog.

 

[Nick Bogaerts]

I wonder how the Moslems would like it if the word "Jews" below was replaced by the word "Moslems." Why shouldn't the Moslems be enlightened to accept Jesus Christ as their savior as well?

Err.., don't they already acknowledge Jesus as a Prophet?

 

[SteveGrenard]

Err.., don't they already acknowledge Jesus as a Prophet?

Is that the same as being the son of god, a savior for all mankind? I dunno 'bout that. Plenty of prophets around, not too many can claim they're the son of god.

 

[Ryokan]

Ratzinger is tearing down all the good will pope John Paul created during his reign. It's a shame.

 

[Rasmus]

Ratzinger is tearing down all the good will pope John Paul created during his reign. It's a shame.

It's honest.

 

[CFLarsen]

So while another Christian leader, the Archbishop of Canterbury opines on ways of appeasing Moslems by allowing some form of Sharia into England, the Pope it seems was busy recently insulting Jews. I wonder how the Moslems would like it if the word "Jews" below was replaced by the word "Moslems." Why shouldn't the Moslems be enlightened to accept Jesus Christ as their savior as well? Buddhists and Hindus could be next.

Have you asked any?

 

[Complexity]

I'm offended by them all.

 

[six7s]

Ratzinger is tearing down all the good will pope John Paul created during his reign. It's a shame.

I see it as something of a double-edged sword...

Sure, it might further alienate the extremists

However, 'middle ground' catholics might be moved towards critical thinking, questioning Papal Bull (oh, the irony!) and the notion of hierarchy by divine ordination

Hanover Historical Texts Project

The Council of Trent: The Twenty-Third Session
The canons and decrees of the sacred and oecumenical Council of Trent​

Being the seventh under the Sovereign Pontiff, Pius IV., celebrated on the fifteenth day of July, MDLXIII.

THE TRUE AND CATHOLIC DOCTRINE, TOUCHING THE SACRAMENT OF ORDER, DECREED AND PUBLISHED BY THE HOLY SYNOD OF TRENT, IN THE SEVENTH SESSION, IN CONDEMNATION OF THE ERRORS OF OUR TIME.

ON THE SACRAMENT OF ORDER.

CANON III.--If any one saith, that order, or sacred ordination, is not truly and properly a sacrament instituted by Christ the Lord; or, that it is a kind of human figment devised by men unskilled in ecclesiastical matters; or, that it is only a kind of rite for choosing ministers of the word of God and of the sacraments; let him be anathema.

CANON V.--If any one saith, that the sacred unction which the Church uses in holy ordination, is not only not required, but is to be despised and is pernicious, as likewise are the other ceremonies of Order; let him be anathema.

CANON VI.--If any one saith, that, in the Catholic Church there is not a hierarchy by divine ordination instituted, consisting of bishops, priests, and ministers; let him be anathema.

Source: history.hanover.edu » texts » trent »ct23

 

[SteveGrenard]

Have you asked any?

No, which is why I asked the question. If I get the chance I'll bring it up. I expect you to do likewise if you can ...since you're asking.

Why do you answer questions with questions?

eta: Do we have any Moslems, devoiut or otherwise, on this forum? If so it would be
appreciated if they could let us know how they would feel about the Pope's remarks directed at Jews were they directed at their religion instead.

 

[Tsukasa Buddha]

Isn't everyone offended by the Pope?

Even the Catholics I know don't like him.

 

[Kopji]

The weird thing is that my Catholic friends have been reminding me for years that the Church is more tolerant, etc etc. That the Pope even endorsed evolution. yadda yadda.

Now it's all getting turned around.

Muslims are probably finding it hard to take a religion seriously that changes what they say every few years. Like maybe, God doesn't really exist and they just make this stuff up as they go. Naw.

 

[ceo_esq]

Isn't everyone offended by the Pope?

Even the Catholics I know don't like him.

Actually, at least in the United States, such people are in the minority. Most Americans, whether or not Catholic and regardless of political leanings, view Benedict XVI favorably, according to the most recent major poll I could find (published September 2007, based on data collected the previous month):

Roughly three-quarters (73%) of Americans who are familiar with Pope Benedict XVI have a favorable opinion of him. Catholics, not surprisingly, view the pope most favorably (86%). But large majorities of other religious groups, including more than seven-in-ten white evangelical Protestants (72%), mainline Protestants (75%) and black Protestants (70%), also are favorably inclined towards Pope Benedict. Among the religiously unaffiliated, however, just 57% have a favorable opinion of the pope.

...

By greater than five-to-one (84%-16%), conservative Republicans have a favorable opinion of the pope; substantial majorities of moderate and liberal Republicans (79%), independents (68%), and conservative and moderate Democrats (79%) also express highly positive views of Pope Benedict. But liberal Democrats have a less favorable view: 59% have a positive impression of the pope, compared with 41% who express an unfavorable opinion.

There's certainly room for improvement in the public eye: Benedict's figures are lower than his predecessor's – though in fairness, JPII's sky-high approval ratings probably represented something of a statistical outlier. Benedict's current numbers are also lower than they were shortly after he took office. On the other hand, to put matters in rough perspective, Benedict's 73% isn't bad: that was the highest approval rating attained by Ronald Reagan in office, while Bill Clinton never managed to break 70%. And Pope Benedict's support is notable for its broad, cross-ideological base.

Americans' views specifically on how Benedict XVI is dealing with interreligious relations are more divided:

A plurality of Americans (46%) who have heard at least a little about Pope Benedict say he is doing only a fair or poor job of promoting good relations with other religions; 38% say the pope is doing an excellent or good job.

 

[SteveGrenard]

Once again the pope has gone too far. This thread was intended to demonstrate that. If anything it's anti-pope. Sorry all you catholics out there.

 

[ceo_esq]

Admittedly, it could potentially be viewed as patronizing and offensive for someone to insinuate that adherents of a different religious worldview need to be enlightened so that they may acknowledge the true path and be converted to more appropriate beliefs.

But enough about Steve, Kopji, six7s, hgc et al. Let's talk about the pope instead:

Ratzinger is tearing down all the good will pope John Paul created during his reign. It's a shame.

That assessment is probably a little premature and misleading, at least as far as it concerns Judaism. After all, Ratzinger deserves partial credit - as some Jewish organizations have noted - for creating the goodwill generated during JPII's papacy. Also, even if one is inclined to regard this latest story as a step backward for the pope, it's arguably a case of "two steps forward, one step back" for him. Just in the first few years of his papacy, Benedict XVI has thrown a lot of effort into strengthening relations with Judaism. Indeed, the pope's numerous remarks suggesting that Judaism should be understood by Christians as having a privileged theological status, that Jews are Christians' beloved "elder brothers in faith", and so forth, have considerably annoyed certain Protestant sects. The pope has been outspoken about the dangers of rising anti-Semitism in Europe, and has rebuked certain Catholics he perceives as contributing to the phenomenon. He's forged a number of strong and mutually admiring relationships with important Jewish leaders and intellectuals, and so forth. So there's a certain amount of goodwill there that didn't even exist until Ratzinger became pope.

Some of this, of course, has been at the expense of the pope's reputation with other groups, particularly certain fundamentalist Christians and wingnut Catholic schismatics who touted this photograph as prima facie proof that Benedict XVI is a dangerous heretic or worse:

 

[SteveGrenard]

He's a heretic because he is lighting a menorah?

 

[six7s]

he's a heretic...

... or worse

 

[ceo_esq]

He's a heretic because he is lighting a menorah?

Well, I doubt it, but I guess that's in the eye of the beholder. At any rate, some fundamentalists and sedevacantists are so alarmed by how conciliatory Ratzinger has has been toward Judaism throughout his career, and the high regard in which he has mostly been held by Jewish thinkers and communities, that they're persuaded that he's got a sinister agenda to "Judaize" Catholicism and deliver his flock over into the hands of satanic rabbis or whatever. To support their case, in addition to quoting Ratzinger's numerous pro-Jewish writings, these people often like to show "incriminating" photos of the pope making nice with Jews and doing "Jewish" things. Very weird stuff.