Jal, Have we convinced you?

[FireGarden]

Some people might be inclined to take silence as agreement. It would be fair enough to end debate if nobody was addressing the points you make, but you dropped your "fastest growing religion" argument without addressing any of the arguments put forward against your postion. And you also dropped your "Status of Jesus in the Bible" argument, though you didn't get any Christian responses to that. (Stamenflicker might even have agreed with you! )

So far you haven't responded to any of the arguments put forward in your "science in Islam" thread. All you've done is post more links, without any indication that you've read them yourself. There's no summary, no highlighting of the relevent point, absolutely nothing.

I don't expect you to devote your whole life to debating on this forum. And you certainly don't have to post everyday. But you put forward an idea and some people have argued against it.

I think most people would agree that you're well within your rights to ignore Shemp, but UpChurch did you the courtesy of reading your link and providing arguments against it. Do you agree with what he said about cosmology?

You don't even have to respond to his entire post all at once. Just pick the point that illustrates your position most clearly and begin with that.

If you cannot or will not debate then you should at least explain why. Otherwise you automatically lose the argument since you will fail to convince anybody to convert to your side.

 

[Pahansiri]

Just my opinion and for what little it is worth. Jal is as their style shows much like billiefan2000, both young, younger males perhaps not in the “in” crowd in school, not jocks or in the “popular circles. Feelings of not having any great feelings of “power” or true control in their life. Being part of a belief which offers a “powerful” God makes them part of a powerful club, being loved and special to a very powerful being. They seek to hold onto something dear to them, debate will be ok if it is someone telling them they are right, they have had a life of being wrong so any decent will be ignored. I believe Franko and JK is clearly this way also just older and all have problems with dates and woman, Franko and JK have turned to hate for woman after a life time of rejection.

Just what I believe and I mean them or any one disrespect.

 

[Yahzi]

Yahzi was r-i-i-i... r-i-i-i... r-i...

oh heck, I can't say it either.

 

[FireGarden]

Yahzi was ri.. ri.. riding a bicycle!

Shazbot! I'll try again tomorrow

 

[FireGarden]

Pahansiri,
I realise that you only gave your opinion, but I don't know how it is that you've filled in so many of the blank spaces in what we know about Jal. All I know is that he has posted some old, derivative, unimaginative arguments in support of Islam. I've seen little that even convinces me that he is a Moslim. Maybe that's because the stereotypes that I'm trying to project on Jal would require him to be more argumentative in defence of his statements.

But I suppose that's the problem with being enigmatic (If you're reading, Jal!).
People will fill in the blanks with the most familiar and stereotypical cliches that occur to them.

(With no disrespect intended, Pahansiri)
I thought that Buddhism was supposed to free you from this kind of jumping to conclusions. Just see what you see, rather than applying a filter of stereotypes.

debate will be ok if it is someone telling them they are right

This forum strikes me as a very strange place to come for confirmation of religious beliefs. But if I were to say that Jal came here to hear opposing voices then that would be quite a leap to an unfounded conclusion of my own.

 

[Pahansiri]

Hello GoodPropaganda

I realise that you only gave your opinion,

Yes as I said for what little it is worth it is just my thoughts and no disrespect was intended.

but I don't know how it is that you've filled in so many of the blank spaces in what we know about Jal.

As with anything we look at and start to try to understand it or learn of it, I looked at what I saw in their words and actions and posted what I believed was perhaps some facts, as I see them. I used how I have seen many other posters in many places post and react and trends. In my business I learn to read people quickly to help motivate them helping them to reach their personal goals “greatness” I must see what are the obstacles and then can help them over come them. I do it pretty well am I always on the mark perfect no of course not but very often pretty good.

All I know is that he has posted some old, derivative, unimaginative arguments in support of Islam. I've seen little that even convinces me that he is a Moslim. Maybe that's because the stereotypes that I'm trying to project on Jal would require him to be more argumentative in defence of his statements.

So we look at what he has done.

1- Posted what seem to be Pro Islam sites and post and I fully respect his beliefs and rights to his belief.
2- I see that like others who I have mentioned he post but does not respond to questions etc.
3- His threads have been
Science in Islam” from that thread

One of the most remarkable things in the Quran is how it deals with science. The Quran which was revealed in the 7th century to Muhammed (p.b.u.h.)_contains unbelievable scientific facts which are being discovered in this century. Scientist are shocked and many times speechless when they are shown how detailed and accurate some verses_ in the Quran are to modern science. Two copies of a Quran exist in a museum in Turkey and Russia. Each one is about 1400 years old. Each copy of the Quran is exactly the same as the ones today. Therefore the Quran is an authentic scripture unlike anything else. While your reading threw this remember that the Quran was revealed more than 1400 years ago, keep in mind the general idea that was common during that time and notice how detailed the verses are.
Soon will we show them our signs in the regions (of the earth), and in their own souls,
until it becomes manifest to them that this is the truth. (41:53)

None of the Bible’s Writers Believed That Jesus is God from that thread

None of the Bible’s Writers Believed That Jesus is God
Christians and Muslims both believe in Jesus, love him, and honor him. They are, however, divided over the question of his divinity. Fortunately, this difference can be resolved if we refer the question to both the Bible and the Quran, because, both the Bible and the Quran teach that Jesus is not God.

New Informationfrom that site

Do you know that Islam is the fastest-growing religion in America, since the eighties? A NATION CHALLENGED: AMERICAN MUSLIMS; Islam Attracts Converts By the Thousand, Drawn Before and After Attacks
By JODI WILGOREN
Source: The New York Times : October 22, 2001, Monday
Section: National Desk
http://www.whyislam.org/discoverwhy.htm

http://www.nytimes.com/2001/10/22/national/22CONV.html
or :
http://www.alhewar.com/


"Islam is the fastest-growing religion in America, a guide and pillar of stability for many of our people..." Hillary Rodman Clinton, Los Angeles Times, May 31, 1996, p.3

"Already more than a billion-people strong, Islam is the world's fastest-growing religion." ABCNEWS, Abcnews.com

"Islam is the fastest-growing religion in the country." NEWSDAY, March7,1989, p.4

"Islam is the fastest-growing religion in the United States..." NEW YORK TIMES, Feb 21, 1989, p.1

"Moslems are the world's fastest-growing group..." USA TODAY, The population referance bureau, Feb. 17, 1989, p.4A
"Islam is the fastest growing religion in North America." TIMES MAGAZINE

"Islam continues to grow in America, and no one can doubt that!" CNN, December 15, 1995

"The religion of Islam is growing faster than any other religion in the world." MIKE WALLACE, 60 MINUTES

From looking at his 3 threads I can gather information from the fact that all 3 are about Islam and seem to be written in a tone that seems he is one who holds Islam dear. I can only assume he is not Christian or Atheist with some confidence.

You write

I've seen little that even convinces me that he is a Moslim.

I respect you believe that but for me I see little from what he has posted that he is not Muslim and again I fully respect him being what he wishes and my post do not address his beliefs.

You say

Maybe that's because the stereotypes that I'm trying to project on Jal would require him to be more argumentative in defence of his statements.

For me I find it wrong to stereotype and find that it is just that, the belief that there is a us and them that is the cause of hate and violence.

I believe and this is back to my post that him not responding, his posting things pro to his belief is like billiefan2000 doing the same, for me, it feels like younger guys believing if they just post these things they will “convert, SAVE” others. Make them like them and in such help support feelings they may have of themselves personally. I believe the need to convert is always done in 2 ways, in part from a personal belief that it is done from love but more so out of ego.

But I suppose that's the problem with being enigmatic (If you're reading, Jal!).
People will fill in the blanks with the most familiar and stereotypical cliches that occur to them.

I never seek to make stereotypical cliches I never say “all of ***** are this and all of ****** are that” I look at and observe and post just what I believe to be a possible truth. I do not demand anyone believe it or demean anyone who does not.

I thought that Buddhism was supposed to free you from this kind of jumping to conclusions. Just see what you see, rather than applying a filter of stereotypes.

And it does, or helps one free themselves from it, am I always the way I should be, no should I have posted what I did, I am not sure but perhaps not. I was not disrespectful and if I was I was wrong, but Buddhism teaches us to look deeply into everything and explore it fully and never believe anything just because it is said ot we see it. I looked at what I could know and offered my thoughts. The main point was not really about them but more about others attacking them, there was a reason they would not respond and that was my point.

This forum strikes me as a very strange place to come for confirmation of religious beliefs. But if I were to say that Jal came here to hear opposing voices then that would be quite a leap to an unfounded conclusion of my own.

Back to my point that he seems young and believes he is posting things that will convert people to what he believes is right.


Just what I believe

 

[FireGarden]

Hello, Pahansiri
I also see nothing in Jal's posts that convinces me he is not a Muslim. I'm agnostic on the matter!

As I said, his posts were old, derivative, unimaginative arguments in support of Islam. There is nothing to indicate that he has ever debated this before, or that he has ever even seen the arguments debated before. Even amongst believers, counter-arguments are mentioned over and over so that they can be refuted. You'll know this if you've ever actually debated the Jehovah's Witnesses that knock on your door. It's almost as if they went to school for it. The arguments that they have to believe are old. But so are all the counter-arguments, and they've obviously heard them all before.

Maybe Jal is a new convert and wants to share the reasons for his conversion. But he just clammed up when people disagreed. This doesn't seem to be the action of someone who "holds Islam dear". It's not even clear that he has read all of the sites he links to.

Maybe he is just inexperienced in defending his beliefs, maybe it was a private conversion and he hasn't discussed this kind of thing before. I don't know.

I'm finding it very difficult to reach any firm conclusion on Jal and his motives. (Again, I realise you only provided your opinion and not anything you claimed was absolute truth)

I think it's interesting the way people form opinions about others. On a couple of occasions on this forum, people have mistakenly thought I was a theist. I try to keep an open mind about people, and (failing in that) I try to stay flexible.

Jal's first thread on the rapid growth of Islam really didn't say much about him. And I wasn't the only one confused.
Reprise posted: I'm still trying to determine whether Jal is pleased by, alarmed at, or indifferent to the information he imparts in his OP.

Colour me confused.

I remember Baker posting something similiar on the growth of Islam. Except that Baker posted it in his "why I am not a Muslim" thread, and Baker was definitely alarmed and worried. (Chicken Little style, admittedly)

If Jal could discuss his beliefs then I would believe he held them dear. Until then, I'm skeptical even of the obvious conclusion that he is Muslim.

BTW

I never seek to make stereotypical cliches I never say “all of ***** are this and all of ****** are that” I look at and observe and post just what I believe to be a possible truth

It wasn't my intention to accuse you of any kind of racism.
The term "Stereotype" is used in psychology to refer to an internalised list of qualities that describe familiar things. EG: we all have a "stereotypical table" that we compare objects to so that we can recognise a table when we see it. It doesn't mean that we think that all tables have four legs.

I could probably have used a better term, but I can't think of it right now.
Apologies for the confusion.