I've Changed My Stand On Legalizing Marijuana

[Luke T.]

We're talking about a major change of heart, so this will be long, and then I need someone to provide me some information.

It has been a long process. 25 years, give or take, on changing my stance on the legalization of marijuana. Even though I was a midnight toker myself, I always believed drugs of every kind should be illegal. I stopped partaking of marijuana in 1981.

This is also a story about a son and father in conflict. You see, I decided to announce to my dad tonight that I think marijuana should be legal. It is never easy to go against your dad, especially if you love yours as much as I do.

My dad is out here visiting us since we have produced a new granddaughter. We are both staunch conservatives and always talk politics, and we almost always agree on everything. The other night, though, I hinted that I thought the death penalty was wrong and was suprised to find he agreed. So we both have changed our opinions about that, and for the same reasons. And I guess I decided to push my luck tonight and talk about marijuana.



As a conservative, I was shocked and disappointed in the 70's when Mr. Conservative himself, Bill Buckley, came out in favor of decriminilizing drugs. That is the point I started my own personal process of thinking about the subject.

A lot of things have brought this about. I mentioned one of them on here a couple months ago when I learned that while marijuana is legal for medical purposes, you have to grow your own if you have a prescription. I thought that was like telling someone they had to grow their own penicillin or mix their own insulin. And imagine the differences in dosage!

I also think that we have wasted a tremendous amount of time, money and resources on waging a war against people who aren't even a problem or menace to society, i.e., the casual dope smoker. If anything, a dope smoker is too lethargic to even be a hazard to himself, unless he gets behind the wheel, in which case he is no more hazardous than a drunk. Not that either is acceptable.

We need to focus on those who abuse, not use. Punishment, discipline and treatment, and not necessarily in that order.

I agree with those who say that illegalizing marijuana is akin to the period of Prohibition. It has only served to create a criminal black market. I could go on, but this point really stoked my dad and I am too weary to repeat my points.

I am going to bed in a minute, so I will read all of your replies in the morning. But for my own satisfaction, I was wondering if anyone had a link to research data that shows the rates of addiction for alcohol, marijuana, heroin, nicotine and whatever host of other drugs you can think of.

I am not going to debate this issue any further with my dad. I like him too much. This is for my own use.

Please, no biased web site links. NORML, or the Libertarian Party (sorry, shanek ) or Mothers Against Drunk Drivers or some such thing. Hard science links please.

I have no personal stake in my stance. As a recovering alcoholic, I must also be drug free. I could not and would not partake of marijuana if they gave away a free joint with every purchase of a large fries at McDonald's. And I'm not in favor of marijuana being that legal anyway.

 

[a_unique_person]

I have no personal stake in my stance. As a recovering alcoholic, I must also be drug free. I could not and would not partake of marijuana if they gave away a free joint with every purchase of a large fries at McDonald's. And I'm not in favor of marijuana being that legal anyway.

All drugs should be available from a government shop in a plain, white wrapper in specified strengths and dosages. Including tobacco and alcohol. This takes away the aura, which is a large part of the experience.

I can't see the bars and entertainment industry doing without the alcohol, though. It is their lifeblood, so I'll make an exception for them.

Much of the crime and criminal activity in the US and Australia is due to junkies after money for drugs. Get rid of the criminality attached to their use, and you still have users, but they don't need bucket loads of cash to run their habits. Hopefully, they will seek out treatment, and get it.

I can't say I have met any drug users who were worried about the criminality of using.

 

[American]

Keeping it criminal favors those who reject the lifestyles associated with it. If you love it so much you'll break the law for it, that's pretty sad, and we have a Darwin effect right there. If it weren't pot, they should make some other small pleasure illegal. The counter-culture will pick up on it, and conformists will avoid it, the result being jail for law-breakers and nice cars for we law-abiding types. I am more than happy to see others put away while I excel, and pot is as good a reason as any other.

 

[Tony]

There is a great article in Forbes about the marijuana biss. in canada. Ill see if I can dig it up. Ill make a new thread.

 

[Cecil]

I am strongly in favour of legalizing marijuana. There's no reason why it should be illegal for adults, but the US government just has so much money invested in brainwashing the public into believing it's evil. Marijuana is also a large part of the economy (especially in BC). It's estimated to be the province's largest export ($3.8 billion US anually) employing 5% of the workforce. And it's all going untaxed!

Rhetoric aside, here are some links to get you started.

Here's a good link on relative addictiveness of various drugs.

More info on relative addictiveness

A 1993 study by the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration concluding that marijuana has few detrimental effects on driving, and never produces impairment worse than a BAC of 0.08.

A 2000 UK study concluding that driving under the influence of cannabis is not a hazard.

Erowid - a huge, (generally) unbiased repository of drug information.

It's not scientific, but it provides some interesting anecdotal evidence about driving on drugs.

As for books, a couple good reads are Ain't Nobody's Business If You Do : The Absurdity of Consensual Crimes in Our Free Country and Why Our Drug Laws Have Failed and What We Can Do About It: A Judicial Indictment of the War on Drugs

 

[corplinx]

I am uncomfortably for the making pot legal. I've seen it destroy lives but I say let Darwinism rule.

Hell, if it weren't for pot you could never get someone who speaks good english to roof your house. Painting, Flooring, roofing; professions full of potheads.

These types really remind me of the Lotos Eaters. They are just comfortably numb with no drive. My older brother is one of them and its a hard thing to not just want to ban it and prosecute it harshly.

 

[fishbob]

The intended effect of marijuana being illegal is reducing MJ use. MJ is illegal, but anybody can get it and many people use it.

The effects of MJ prohibition? Some people make a nice chunk of money selling it and some people go to jail, but the use of MJ is unaffected. Same with cocaine, and other drugs.

Certainly drug abuse destroys lives and is a drain on society, but prohibition is expensive, and does not decrease drug use.

Much like acupuncture and dowsing, people feel better doing something useless rather than doing nothing.

 

[Jon_in_london]

Re: Re: I've Changed My Stand On Legalizing Marijuana

I can't say I have met any drug users who were worried about the criminality of using.

I would have to disagree with you here. Its always at the back of a users mind. In my druggie daze I would always crap myself when meeting a new dealer.

Nevertheless, the cost to society of enforcing a punitive regime against drug users has been appalling.

 

[Cecil]

Certainly drug abuse destroys lives and is a drain on society, but prohibition is expensive, and does not decrease drug use.

I disagree. I can point to some people whose sole reason for not trying marijuana is the fact that it's illegal. Drug use would likely rise immediately after lifting prohibition, as many people would go out and try them. However, I think the long-term effect would probably be towards lower rates of drug use, as I believe was the case with alcohol after Prohibition ended.

A second point that needs to be made is the important distinction between drug use and drug abuse. Just as there is a difference between having a glass of wine and drinking a fifth of vodka every night, there is a difference between using drugs responsibly to enhance the quality of your life and being high as a kite all the time. There seems to be a societal misconception that any sort of drug use is bad and leads down a road towards addiction. I, for one, have taken the following oath and encourage everyone I know who uses drugs to take it as well.

The Responsible Drug User's Oath
* I understand the effects of all recreational drugs I take, to the best of my ability. I shall research the neurochemical, psychological, physiological, and spiritual effects, and the legal issues surrounding the drug and its use.
* When taking a drug I am inexperienced with, I shall begin with the lowest dose suggested to be psychoactive by the aforementioned research before progressing to higher dosages. I will measure the drug carefully, with an accurate scale.
* If it is possible that the drug may contain harmful adulterants or in fact be a different drug altogether, I shall have the drug anonymous chemical testing for purity and content.
* I will learn the overdose limits for my own body weight and adjust them for any possible synergistic effects due to diet, prescription or other drugs. I will also adjust for dangerous side effects and my own health condition. After calculating my personal limit, I will stay under 75% of this limit, to minimize risk.
* While under the effects of a drug, I shall not take physical risks such as driving, climbing, swimming, or any other physical activity in which my actions may cause harm to myself or others.
* When first using a drug I am inexperienced with, I shall take it in the company of an experienced user, also known as a spotter. The spotter will remain sober during this experience, and will also have fully researched the drug.
* I shall not attempt to sway, force, trick, or otherwise coerce another person to take any drug; rather, I shall discuss previous drug experiences and research frankly and honestly, allowing all people to make their own personal decisions about drug use.
* I shall defend the rights of others to make educated, responsible decisions about drug use. I shall not support any person or movement that attempts to remove or abridge said rights.
* I shall not allow my drug use to overshadow or disrupt the other important aspects of my life, including social interaction, employment or even other personal pursuits.
* I will also take responsibility for the drug use of friends and relatives, if their drug use becomes dangerous to their health or personal relationships.

 

[EvilYeti]

These types really remind me of the Lotos Eaters. They are just comfortably numb with no drive. My older brother is one of them and its a hard thing to not just want to ban it and prosecute it harshly.

What do you think of this famous pot-head?

Biographer: Sagan Smoked Marijuana

SAN FRANCISCO ( AP ) - The late astronomer and author Carl Sagan was a secret but avid marijuana smoker, crediting it with inspiring essays and scientific insight, according to Sagan's biographer.

Using the pseudonym "Mr. X'', Sagan wrote about his pot smoking in an essay published in the 1971 book "Reconsidering Marijuana.'' The book's editor, Lester Grinspoon, recently disclosed the secret to Sagan's biographer, Keay Davidson.

Davidson, a writer for the San Francisco Examiner, revealed the marijuana use in an article published in the newspaper's magazine Sunday. "Carl Sagan: A Life'' is due out in October.

"I find that today a single joint is enough to get me high ... in one movie theater recently I found I could get high just by inhaling the cannabis smoke which permeated the theater,'' wrote Sagan, who authored popular science books such as "Cosmos,'' "Contact,'' and "The Dragons of Eden.''

In the essay, Sagan said marijuana inspired some of his intellectual work.

"I can remember one occasion, taking a shower with my wife while high, in which I had an idea on the origins and invalidities of racism in terms of gaussian distribution curves,'' wrote the former Cornell University professor. "I wrote the curves in soap on the shower wall, and went to write the idea down.

Sagan also wrote that pot enhanced his experience of food, particularly potatoes, music and sex.

Grinspoon, Sagan's closest friend for 30 years, said Sagan's marijuana use is evidence against the notion that marijuana makes people less ambitious.

"He was certainly highly motivated to work, to contribute,'' said Grinspoon, a psychiatry professor at Harvard University.

Grinspoon is an advocate of decriminalizing marijuana.

Ann Druyan, Sagan's former wife, is a director of the National Organization for the Reform of Marijuana Laws. The nonprofit group promotes legalization of marijuana.

Sagan died of pneumonia in 1996. He was 62.

 

[The Don]

I would not now, nor would I ever advocate the use of illegal drugs.

However I have a "friend" who, from time to time, will indulge in a little MJ. In order to obtain it, he has to go to a dealer. These dealers are not particularly savoury people and furthermore are increasingly unlikely to stock MJ. Instead they tend to have crack and heroin. This provides a better repeat business.

If all drugs were to be made legal and sold through state monopoly shops.

- The strength and purity could be controlled/maintained
- They could be sold with delivery mechanisms (no needle sharing)
- Usage could be tracked
- Revenue could be raised for treatment programmes
- My "friend" wouldn't have to deal with lowlifes

But.....

- We'd have people coming from all over the world to buy and consume drugs
- Addiction rates may (or may not) go up
- The criminal element will have to find something else to do

I'd like to see drugs legalised so that I could choose not to use them. I understand however the difficulties associated with doing so

 

[hgc]

What do you think of this famous pot-head?

Biographer: Sagan Smoked Marijuana

SAN FRANCISCO ( AP ) - The late astronomer and author Carl Sagan was a secret but avid marijuana smoker, crediting it with inspiring essays and scientific insight, according to Sagan's biographer.

...

Sagan also wrote that pot enhanced his experience of food, particularly potatoes, music and sex.
...

Potatoes!?!? Typical pothead kookiness. There oughta be a law.

 

[Jon_in_london]

- We'd have people coming from all over the world to buy and consume drugs
- Addiction rates may (or may not) go up
- The criminal element will have to find something else to do

1- Not a neccesarily a bad thing. Amsterdam makes squillions out of people who just want to smoke a legal spliff.
2- The Dutch experience is a transient rise in use following legalisation, but that the rate of drug use settles down and in fact goes bellow what it was previously.
3- Like get a job.

 

[Tmy]

Your forgetting the most important thing. Smoking pot is FUN! And whats wrong with FUN!

If you and your pops smoked a J and started talking politics youd have some of the best (and funniest) father son conversations ever! Theres nothing liek watching C-span while your high.

 

[Tony]

If you and your pops smoked a J and started talking politics youd have some of the best (and funniest) father son conversations ever! Theres nothing liek watching C-span while your high.

Or the O'Rielly Factor.

 

[fsol]

there is a fair amount of stuff to look at here


http://www.newscientist.com/hottopics/marijuana/

 

[Agammamon]

Jacob Sullum's "saying Yes: In Defense Of Drug Use" is a very good book on the subject. Recent publication too.

People keep on about state-run distribution and manufacturing, but does anyone really think you beer or wine would be better if it was made by the state? As a matter of fact can anyone think of any product made by a state that's comparable to private enterprise. Right now the only "legal" source of marijuana in the US is a small government run operation whose product is so poor that legitimate researchers find it almost useless.
Let's not forget that if (in the extremely unlikely case) marijuana was legalized there is already a manufacturing system in place that can guarantee quality and content - Tobacco companies. These guys have much greater incentive (and ability) to meet public demand for quality, potency, and safety (no really) than a government program would. As for "stronger" drugs, pharmecuetical companies already make cocaine, heroin, and morphine (as a small example) for medical use. It wouldn't be a far stretch for them to flex their corporate muscle and take over the white market manufacturing and distribution and push out the (currently) illegals.
As for distribution, those of you who live in US states that have a mandated state-run distribution system can best imagine how bad that would be.

 

[Charlie Monoxide]

The "war on drugs" is a dismal failure. It seems the only groups against legalizing drugs are prison guards, cops, some areas of the legal industry, and gutless politicians.

I'm heart-broken that Canada tried to decriminalize pot but now it's stuck (I think now dead) in the upper house.

Charlie (no hope without dope) Monoxide

 

[Agammamon]

. . .- The criminal element will have to find something else to do. . .[/B]

This is a bit off topic, but if we stopped making vice illegal then the criminal element would be cut off from their most profitable activities and forced into those that your average Joe is not likely to tolerate long (ie murder, theft, extortion). These are the crimes that give OC, or indeed UC, a bad rep in the community and are much harder to maintain profitability in the long run.

 

[Tmy]

Dont get into lobbing pot in wh other drugs. Theres a big difference tween pot and heroine.

As for the war on drugs. It is a joke. We cant even keep drugs out of prisons. PRISONS!!! A secure place that is basically under martial law 24/7, and they still cant keep drugs out. How can you expect to keep them out of society??