It's so frustrating...

[JonathanClement]

Okay, most of the arguments I had against Christianity have been reconciled by Christians. I've been reading the bible and I'm almost finished Deuteronomy.

So, now that Christians have patched up the holes in their beliefs, I'm getting really frustrated and depressed because I'm starting to wonder if Christianity isn't true...

I've gotten on my knees and seriously begged God for understanding... Begged him to give me the spiritual fortitude to want to change... To want to follow his laws...

I'm seriously trying to give God the benifit of a doubt.

I don't want to be a Christian, but I don't want to go to hell either.

Whenever I try to think of a way that their arguments don't work, I get this feeling that I'm just making excuses not to believe...

I've been trying my damnedest to seek God and the truth, whatever that might be, but it just feels like I loose no matter what I do.

If I don't believe and it's true, then I go to hell.

IF I DO believe and it's not true, then I waste the only life I have for pleasure by deleting my hentai collection and and giving up my possessions.

And if I DO believe and it IS true, then I've still lost because I just end up becoming this...zombie in heaven where my personality is completely destroyed and all I ever care about is God. I never get to have kids or experience sex, and in this life, I have to go through the agony of knowing that there will be people who are deprived of these joys who will go into one of 2 categories: Eternal torture in hell, or being a mindless blob in heaven.

Whenever I say that I don't want to be obsessed with God, I.E., Heaven, There's always this irritating feeling that's telling me that I'm being selfish and wicked or that it's "Satan talking".

But the thing is, all I want is to be left alone in peace without the looming threat of hell over my head. I just want to be able to fantasize about being a ninja or a wizard without feeling guilty about it. I want to be able to look at women without feeling shame. I want to be able to enjoy sexual pleasure. But then it's almost like there's a voice in the back of my head saying "It's now about what you want!"

It just makes me wonder why Yahweh, if he exists, would be so cruel as to put us in such a situation...

Could someone help?

 

[Civilized Worm]

Well for me reading atheist books like the God Delusion and talking with other atheists gave me the reassurance I needed in abandoning any lingering worries about god.

Remember that there is no more evidence for the god you fear than for any of the gods you don't fear. Or for that matter vampires, werewolves or zombies. Once you can confidently proclaim that there is no all powerful bogeyman watching your every move you won't need to be afraid anymore.

 

[SonOfLaertes]

Okay, most of the arguments I had against Christianity have been reconciled by Christians. I've been reading the bible and I'm almost finished Deuteronomy.

So, now that Christians have patched up the holes in their beliefs, I'm getting really frustrated and depressed because I'm starting to wonder if Christianity isn't true...

I've gotten on my knees and seriously begged God for understanding... Begged him to give me the spiritual fortitude to want to change... To want to follow his laws...

I'm seriously trying to give God the benifit of a doubt.

I don't want to be a Christian, but I don't want to go to hell either.

Whenever I try to think of a way that their arguments don't work, I get this feeling that I'm just making excuses not to believe...

I've been trying my damnedest to seek God and the truth, whatever that might be, but it just feels like I loose no matter what I do.

If I don't believe and it's true, then I go to hell.

IF I DO believe and it's not true, then I waste the only life I have for pleasure by deleting my hentai collection and and giving up my possessions.

And if I DO believe and it IS true, then I've still lost because I just end up becoming this...zombie in heaven where my personality is completely destroyed and all I ever care about is God. I never get to have kids or experience sex, and in this life, I have to go through the agony of knowing that there will be people who are deprived of these joys who will go into one of 2 categories: Eternal torture in hell, or being a mindless blob in heaven.

Whenever I say that I don't want to be obsessed with God, I.E., Heaven, There's always this irritating feeling that's telling me that I'm being selfish and wicked or that it's "Satan talking".

But the thing is, all I want is to be left alone in peace without the looming threat of hell over my head. I just want to be able to fantasize about being a ninja or a wizard without feeling guilty about it. I want to be able to look at women without feeling shame. I want to be able to enjoy sexual pleasure. But then it's almost like there's a voice in the back of my head saying "It's now about what you want!"

It just makes me wonder why Yahweh, if he exists, would be so cruel as to put us in such a situation...

Could someone help?

Have you taken the time to go through the same process with, say, Mormons or Muslims? They would be able to "reconcile" your arguments in the exact same way that the Christians are able to. Once you realize this then what you are left with is Pascals Wager. All religions can tie you in knots with reasonable sounding counter arguments; many religions will insist that your lack of faith will lead to hellfire and damnation. When you realize that they cannot all be right, even though their adherents are as fervent and convincing as all the others; then you have taken a step. When you realize that other, more learned non-believers than you or I can counter all of their arguments effectively, then you have learned there are holes in Faith-based arguments that you haven't considered.

That is the meaning of the word Faith; any Christians arguments can be effectively countered. There is no proof of God; only individual faith that

- Joseph Smith is a latter day prophet; so salvation can only come through following his teachings, or

- Allah is the one and only true God, or

- Jesus Christ is the only pathway to salvation, or

etc.


And please look up Pascals Wager.

 

[ExMinister]

For me, the problem was that the arguments I heard in favor of Christianity were NOT logical. Many of the arguments don't add up, if you really consider them. It isn't Satan, it's just logic.

For example, you specifically mention hell, so let's take the Christian argument that non-believers will go to hell, but (the Christian) God is all loving and good. Well, if this God is all loving and good and some of his children are likely to go to hell if they either don't believe in the divinity of, or don't even know about, Jesus (perhaps they had the misfortune of being born in a non-Christian country), then why would a loving God not be appearing on every street corner warning people, or writing giant neon cloud messages in the sky, saying things like "Please repent and believe so you don't wind up in hell."

How is that a loving God would not be determined to supernaturally get these important messages through to his beloved children in non-Christian countries? And no, it isn't up to his human representatives, as the argument goes. Why? Because if God is all-knowing, then God knows there is a little elderly woman in some non-Christian region of the world right this moment who hasn't heard the "Good News" and is going to die very shortly and go to hell - with no human representative likely to reach her in time. If you were God, in this case, would you not be blasting this message throughout the Universe even just to save this poor lady, especially if she was a really, really nice one? Especially if you created her to begin with and plopped her down in a place or a family where she was unlikely to believe in Jesus.

If you were God and there was a hell, wouldn't you be determined to supernaturally intervene in the life of every one of your children in order to prevent them from a suffering such a horrifying fate? And if you are loving, wouldn't you be focusing your unmistakable, supernatural messages most on the atheists and those of other religions who have the greatest chance of going there?

Also, think about how many things used to be considered sins, condemning people to hell, that have since been repealed by the Catholic church. Are all of those poor souls now freed from hell? Can you imagine God pulling these poor tormented souls up out of the eternal flames of agony, saying, "Oh, the Catholic church changed its mind, so you can come out now? Sorry about that."

I recently came across a supposed explanation for why (this supposedly loving) God ordered the brutal killing of women and children at some point in the Bible, which I can't recall at the moment. It was because these children were pagan children who might grow up to become enemies of the Jewish people!

Isn't that crazy? Who created the pagan children? Wasn't it God? Why would God create pagan children, only to kill them? Why not just refuse to create new children who weren't Jewish? And in modern times, if God is loving, wouldn't it be kinder just to make sure no one had kids except Christians?

And if God isn't even as nice and forgiving and decent as you are, then what is the point of worshipping such a God anyway?

And why is that my Southern Baptist friend and my Catholic friend are both convinced that the other one is going to hell? Haven't they both accepted Jesus Christ as their personal savior? Sheesh, I can't even pick a Christian religion without having to worry that I picked the wrong one and will wind up in hell anyway.

There are lots of threads on the forum dealing with these kinds of issues, but these are just a few of my own thoughts, to perhaps help you see, like I did, that this is what happens when you are logical, not when you are tempted.

 

[JonathanClement]

Thanks, Ex.

One argument was that the killing of innocent children was a good thing cause they would get a free pass to heaven. If that's the case, then hasn't their free will been tampered with?

 

[Civilized Worm]

That's one of the most horrible things I've ever heard.

 

[JonathanClement]

That's one of the most horrible things I've ever heard.

In what way?

 

[I Ratant]

Ex, there's not all that many things to consider, fears of damnation aside.
As all these religions promise such, if you don't adhere to -their- precepts, as mentioned, all of them can't be right, but all of them can be wrong.
This leaves the whole idea of damnation with nothing going for it all, it's just noises in many people's heads that they interpret as -a- divinity speaking to them, and them only.
Consider these people, based on all can't be right, to be properly insane.
Even the insane can fabricate intricate rationalizations, but they're working from a zero content base.
Then as also mentioned, there's the very poor PR involved, where whoever is yelling his "truth" from his street corner is certainly a bad medium for the message to be channeled thru.
The appalling savagery implicit in and practiced daily in Islamic countries just cries for some manner of supernatural intervention.
But nothing occurs, other than more savagery.
"All-loving" certainly can't be shoehorned in this reality.
All anyone should be directed to for a life worth living is to live that life as peacefully and non-confrontationallly as it can be.
Do unto others .... what more could there be?
Not for the harps and houris, but because here, where we -can- affect ours and others lives, it's just nice to behave that way.

 

[Civilized Worm]

In what way?

Erm, because it's trying to turn the slaughter of innocent children into a good thing? I would have thought it's repulsiveness would be apparent to any thinking person.

 

[ExMinister]

Thanks, Ex.

One argument was that the killing of innocent children was a good thing cause they would get a free pass to heaven. If that's the case, then hasn't their free will been tampered with?

Disregarding for the moment the frightening implications of a belief like that, more to the point, why create them in the first place? Why create children knowing that you are going to command the Jewish people to murder them because you have sent them into a family of non-Jews?

Again, illogical. And cruel.

 

[ExMinister]

Ex, there's not all that many things to consider, fears of damnation aside.
As all these religions promise such, if you don't adhere to -their- precepts, as mentioned, all of them can't be right, but all of them can be wrong...


"All-loving" certainly can't be shoehorned in this reality.
All anyone should be directed to for a life worth living is to live that life as peacefully and non-confrontationallly as it can be.
Do unto others .... what more could there be?
Not for the harps and houris, but because here, where we -can- affect ours and others lives, it's just nice to behave that way.

Agree with both these points. All of them can't be right, so if we're going to be worried about hell and opt for religion, we may as well just flip a coin, pick a religion and hope for the best.

And I don't think the human race would have survived even this long if people didn't instinctively understand that cooperation, sharing/kindness and refraining from killing each other was a good and necessary thing - no religion needed.

 

[Whack01]

And if I DO believe and it IS true, then I've still lost because I just end up becoming this...zombie in heaven where my personality is completely destroyed and all I ever care about is God. I never get to have kids or experience sex, and in this life, I have to go through the agony of knowing that there will be people who are deprived of these joys who will go into one of 2 categories: Eternal torture in hell, or being a mindless blob in heaven.

Did you chose to even be born a human? Did you chose to be born a male or a female? Does the bible say that God created you? If he has done these things, then do you suppose he would be less faithful to you when your sins are forgiven?

Consider Mark 10:29-30, "I tell you the truth," Jesus replied, "no one who has left home or brothers or sisters or mother or father or children or fields for me and the gospel will fail to receive a hundred times as much in this present age (homes, brothers, sisters, mothers, children and fields - and with them persecutions) and in the age to come eternal life. "

In addition to this Isiah 40:27-31 is a passage often said to speak of the bodies we shall receive at the resurrection.

I'd strongly advise you to read Isiah 53-56. Chapter 53 is a prophecy of Christ, and 54-56 speak of the Lords goodness.

ETA: I've responded in part because you've said that you're sincere and trying to read scripture. This forum isn't typically a good place to go for theological answers, though you will find a plethora of logical ones here.

 

[Robin]

So, now that Christians have patched up the holes in their beliefs, I'm getting really frustrated and depressed because I'm starting to wonder if Christianity isn't true...

Tell me one thing that would lead you to believe that Christianity is true.

 

[Civilized Worm]

Consider Mark 10:29-30, "I tell you the truth," Jesus replied, "no one who has left home or brothers or sisters or mother or father or children or fields for me and the gospel will fail to receive a hundred times as much in this present age (homes, brothers, sisters, mothers, children and fields - and with them persecutions) and in the age to come eternal life. "

So you're asking the poor guy to give up all he has for an empty promise?

 

[JonathanClement]

Did you chose to even be born a human? Did you chose to be born a male or a female? Does the bible say that God created you? If he has done these things, then do you suppose he would be less faithful to you when your sins are forgiven?

Consider Mark 10:29-30, "I tell you the truth," Jesus replied, "no one who has left home or brothers or sisters or mother or father or children or fields for me and the gospel will fail to receive a hundred times as much in this present age (homes, brothers, sisters, mothers, children and fields - and with them persecutions) and in the age to come eternal life. "

In addition to this Isiah 40:27-31 is a passage often said to speak of the bodies we shall receive at the resurrection.

I'd strongly advise you to read Isiah 53-56. Chapter 53 is a prophecy of Christ, and 54-56 speak of the Lords goodness.

ETA: I've responded in part because you've said that you're sincere and trying to read scripture. This forum isn't typically a good place to go for theological answers, though you will find a plethora of logical ones here.

You know, I always wanted to believe that when I was a christian, But it seemed as though the only thing I really cared about wasn't going to be in heaven... And that just broke my faith.

Tell me one thing that would lead you to believe that Christianity is true.

Probably if he told me so with his own voice.

 

[Whack01]

Thanks, Ex.

One argument was that the killing of innocent children was a good thing cause they would get a free pass to heaven. If that's the case, then hasn't their free will been tampered with?

Where did you hear this? I'm guessing on these forums there was a thread awhile back. I have never in my life heard a Christian say this is good, it's usually brought up as a straw man to debunk doctrines on "age of accountability". It's universally condemned.

You'll note that in that thread I asked for a source saying that a child had been sacrificed in this manner and none was given. Furthermore calling "the way" a Christian group is sort of hard. if this website is accurate it's a cult, "It was founded in 1942 by Victor Paul Wierwille, a minister who claimed God had promised him an understanding of the Bible lost since the first century. "

 

[JonathanClement]

Where did you hear this? I'm guessing on these forums there was a thread awhile back. I have never in my life heard a Christian say this is good, it's usually brought up as a straw man to debunk doctrines on "age of accountability". It's universally condemned.

You'll note that in that thread I asked for a source saying that a child had been sacrificed in this manner and none was given. Furthermore calling "the way" a Christian group is sort of hard. if this website is accurate it's a cult, "It was founded in 1942 by Victor Paul Wierwille, a minister who claimed God had promised him an understanding of the Bible lost since the first century. "

It's in the bible. Deuteronomy 2:34.

 

[A Christian Sceptic]

It's in the bible. Deuteronomy 2:34.

Hi,

I think people are getting confused to the context of your example. Is this what you meant:

You asked someone about Deuteronomy 2:34 and the answer they gave was that "killing the children was a good thing, because they'll go straight to heaven." Is that correct?

By the way - if you're interested in being a Christian you might want to first stick with Jesus teachings first since He's the founder and Teacher - his teachings, for Christians, supersede and reinterpret the Old Testament teachings. (Well - actually, He put the intention of many of the laws back in line to their original purpose). Just my two cents.

 

[Whack01]

Deuteronomy 2:32-35

"When Sihon and all his army came out to meet us in battle at Jahaz, 33 the Lord our God delivered him over to us and we struck him down, together with his sons and his whole army. At that time we took all his towns and completely destroyed them men, women and children We left no survivors. But the livestock and the plunder from the towns we had captured we carried off for ourselves. "

Where does this say to kill children so that the children can go to heaven?

 

[JonathanClement]

It doesn't, but they were supposed to kill them and people justify this by saying that the kids would automatically go to heaven. Of course, the adults would go to hell, so it nullifies the whole argument.