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It's called "failure"

Sundog

Master Poster
Joined
Apr 22, 2003
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Here are some comments from previously unidentified un-American antiwar leftist traitors drawn from several current articles at www.truthout.org:

"We have failed to come anywhere near meeting the post-war expectations of Iraqis for security and post-war reconstruction... There is only one word for a situation in which you cannot win and you cannot withdraw - quagmire."
- Larry Diamond, an analyst at the conservative Hoover Institution

"I believe we are absolutely on the brink of failure. We are looking into the abyss... The policy people in both Washington and Baghdad have demonstrated their inability to do a job on a day-to-day basis this past year."
- General Joseph Hoar, a former commander in chief of US central command

"...a small group of neo-conservative ideologues were able to substitute their illusions for an effective planning effort by professionals".
Anthony Cordesman, a military scholar at the Centre for Strategic and International Studies

"We are winning tactically, but have made a few tactical blunders … [which] created strategic consequences in world opinion. We are losing public support regionally, internationally and within America — thus, currently, we are losing strategically."
Maj. Gen. Charles H. Swannack Jr., commander of the Army's 82nd Airborne Division

"We could not have screwed up more if we had set out to do it deliberately. We gave ourselves all the disadvantages of occupation, but none of the advantages."
- An active duty officer, name withheld

"We need to restrain what are growing U.S. messianic instincts, a sort of global social engineering where the United States feels it is both entitled and obligated to promote democracy, by force if necessary. Liberty cannot be laid down like so much Astroturf. Law and order must come first."
Sen. Pat Roberts (R-Kan.), the conservative chairman of the Senate Intelligence Committee
--------------------------

Neocons, your days in power are numbered. Even your fellow Republicans have had enough.


RELEVANCE TO THE JREF MISSION:

Critical thinkers must recognize that a cancerous meme called "neoconservatism" threatens critical thinking on a worldwide level, and that it has the power to subvert critical thinking in otherwise sane individuals.
 
Neocons, your days in power are numbered.

- Where there is ignorance, where there is jingoism, where there is fundamentalism, there will always be neoconservativism. But yes, their voracious gobbling has slowed somewhat. I drink a beer to that trend.
 
Sundog said:
Neocons, your days in power are numbered. Even your fellow Republicans have had enough.
If people just voted on the issue of the war, I'd say you're right. Fortunately/unfortunately, I think most people decide their vote on more than just one issue.

Three plus years ago, I couldn't imagine Bush actually winning the election. (Insert "He didn't" joke here.) While I still can't understand how anyone thinks he's done a good job for our country, I'm not going to underestimate the ability of people to stick with one side or the other, especially as polarized as country is right now.
RELEVANCE TO THE JREF MISSION:

Critical thinkers must recognize that a cancerous meme called "neoconservatism" threatens critical thinking on a worldwide level, and that it has the power to subvert critical thinking in otherwise sane individuals.
Ironically, your choice of wording suggests that you aren't thinking critically about this issue yourself. Why is neoconservatism "cancerous" and how exactly does it subvert critical thinking? Could not the same thing be said of extreme liberalism, as well?
 
Re: Re: It's called "failure"

Upchurch said:

Ironically, your choice of wording suggests that you aren't thinking critically about this issue yourself. Why is neoconservatism "cancerous" and how exactly does it subvert critical thinking? Could not the same thing be said of extreme liberalism, as well?

Certainly extreme liberalism or "communism" was one of the most destructive memes ever, for the same reason. When we are at a point in history where that meme is responsible for the fixes we're in, you may expect me to talk about it, and may criticise me if I don't.

Neoconservatism, like religion, has at its core a need to ignore and dismiss any arguments that don't fit. Deny this if you like; to many of us it's rather obvious.
 
AtheistArchon said:


- Where there is ignorance, where there is jingoism, where there is fundamentalism, there will always be neoconservativism.


That must be why the middle east is populated with neoconservatives.
 
Re: Re: Re: It's called "failure"

Sundog said:

Neoconservatism, like religion, has at its core a need to ignore and dismiss any arguments that don't fit.

That's a trait of idealism in general.
 
Tony said:



That must be why the middle east is populated with neoconservatives.

That's an interesting assertion, actually. I think you could easily make the argument that they are very very conservative, but do the things that differentiate the NeoCons from conservatives here show up there, do you think?

BTW "but look how bad they are" is always a weak argument.
 
Re: Re: It's called "failure"

Upchurch said:
If people just voted on the issue of the war, I'd say you're right. Fortunately/unfortunately, I think most people decide their vote on more than just one issue.

What issue do you think he CAN win on? The economy? Yeah, he's done a great job: millions of jobs lost, budgets deficts higher than ever, total fiscal irresponsibility. If he were a CEO, he'd have been on the streets a long time ago.

There are millions of people who will vote for him no matter what happens, short of him personally skinning live babies on TV. These are the type of people who think Armaggeddon is just around the corner, or that we should just blow half the world to kingdom come and be done with it, or who work at Wal-Mart or have no job at all and are too dumb to understand why.
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: It's called "failure"

Tony said:


That's a trait of idealism in general.

Absolutely.

One thing wrong right now I think, is that the left seems to have its sillier idealistic nature fairly under control, while it's the right's turn now to have an idealistic orgy. 'Til November at least...
 
Re: Re: Re: It's called "failure"

Sundog said:

Deny this if you like; to many of us it's rather obvious.
Well, isn't part of skepticism questioning everything? Especially the seemingly obvious?

Maybe the first step is defining what you mean by "neoconservativism"?
 
Tony said:



That must be why the middle east is populated with neoconservatives.
Tony:
Do you proof read before you post or is it more of a stream of conscience? I was wondering because your quip is an indication of the former being in command of your keyboard.
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: It's called "failure"

Upchurch said:
Well, isn't part of skepticism questioning everything? Especially the seemingly obvious?


But these are the conclusions my critical thinking has led me to. Certainly you are free to come to a different conclusion.



Maybe the first step is defining what you mean by "neoconservativism"?

Hmm? This is a fairly well-understood term. I accept the general definition.
 
NightG1 said:

Tony:
Do you proof read before you post or is it more of a stream of conscience? I was wondering because your quip is an indication of the former being in command of your keyboard.

Yes, you are right. I proofread my posts. I also run them through Microsoft Word.
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: It's called "failure"

Sundog said:


But these are the conclusions my critical thinking has led me to. Certainly you are free to come to a different conclusion.
I'm really just asking you to fill in the intermediary steps that led you to this conclusion. (not that I don't emotionally agree with you, but if we're going to take this from a critical thinking perspective, there has to be more to it)
Hmm? This is a fairly well-understood term. I accept the general definition.
Websters isn't very helpful.
Main Entry: neo·con·ser·va·tive
Pronunciation: -k&n-'s&r-v&-tiv
Function: noun
: a former liberal espousing political conservatism
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: It's called "failure"

Upchurch said:
I'm really just asking you to fill in the intermediary steps that led you to this conclusion. (not that I don't emotionally agree with you, but if we're going to take this from a critical thinking perspective, there has to be more to it)

Fair enough. My opinion is based on reports of encounters with neocons in the administration with virtually anyone who doesn't completely support their plans, with simple observation of how anyone near the administration who tells all is suddenly treated an Enemy, and finally, with encounters with neocons in real life who are, shall we say, less than nimble and less than flexible in their thinking processes. YMMV.

If you're seriously seeking a definition of neocons, I don't think you'll have much trouble finding one. (The Webster's one made me laugh...now THAT'S oversimplification.)
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: It's called "failure"

shemp said:

Precisely. Jeebus and/or sheer stupidity.
Well, I think he'll pull more than just the "Armageddon outta here" portion of the Jeebus-lovin' crowd, but I knew what you meant. I just really like the way southern Baptist preachers stereotypically say "Jesus" as almost a three syllable word. It's hard to articulate in written form.

"JEA-sus-sa"
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: It's called "failure"

Upchurch said:
Well, I think he'll pull more than just the "Armageddon outta here" portion of the Jeebus-lovin' crowd, but I knew what you meant. I just really like the way southern Baptist preachers stereotypically say "Jesus" as almost a three syllable word. It's hard to articulate in written form.

"JEA-sus-sa"

"SHU-emp-ah"
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: It's called "failure"

Upchurch said:
I'm really just asking you to fill in the intermediary steps that led you to this conclusion. (not that I don't emotionally agree with you, but if we're going to take this from a critical thinking perspective, there has to be more to it)
Websters isn't very helpful.
Thanks Upchurch. At the risk of offending Sundog who I like very much and who I think is a very decent and honest person I have to say that there is a misconception as to what critical thinking is.
 

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