Italy warrants for 22 purported CIA operatives

[Elind]

Trying to avoid the usual slanging match here, it seem obvious that whatever happened was not an act commissioned by individuals on their own account, but by the US government; and supposedly with the knowledge of the Italian equivalent of the CIA (as much of an allegation as the opposing ones).

So; how does this warrant differ from one issued against the US as a nation, and presumably where the buck stops? Why doesn't this judge, and his bosses stop playing silly games and ask their government to severe relations with the US?

Has Italy never heard of government to government dealings, where perhaps one tells the other that they don't like something, but they don't want to go to war over it?

Italy warrants for 22 purported CIA operatives


ROME, Italy (CNN) -- An Italian judge has issued European arrest warrants for 22 purported CIA agents alleged to have kidnapped an Egyptian-born Muslim cleric in Milan in 2003, a prosecutor said Friday.
The warrants make it legal for the 22 to be arrested in any of the European Union's member nations.

 

[fishbob]

Trying to avoid the usual slanging match here, it seem obvious that whatever happened was not an act commissioned by individuals on their own account, but by the US government; and supposedly with the knowledge of the Italian equivalent of the CIA (as much of an allegation as the opposing ones).

I suspect is a stepwise approach, based on pandering to the Italian public. Show some evidence against individuals, then see which way Italian public opinion is leaning, then show they worked for CIA, then see which way Italian public opinion is leaning, then go up against the US government.

 

[Elind]

I suspect is a stepwise approach, based on pandering to the Italian public. Show some evidence against individuals, then see which way Italian public opinion is leaning, then show they worked for CIA, then see which way Italian public opinion is leaning, then go up against the US government.

You may be right in the approach, but that doesn't address my question of what is appropriate action in this type of case. Is this what some call a judge with an agenda in the US? Aka "Activist".

 

[Nick Bogaerts]

So; how does this warrant differ from one issued against the US as a nation, and presumably where the buck stops?

Arrest a nation and throw it in prison? I can believe the United States have enough prisons to hold the entire population of Italy, but I'm not convinced the reverse is true.

Why doesn't this judge, and his bosses stop playing silly games and ask their government to severe relations with the US?

Because that decision belongs to the executive, not the judiciary.

Has Italy never heard of government to government dealings, where perhaps one tells the other that they don't like something, but they don't want to go to war over it?

Probably. And Italians also know a lot about governments breaking the law.

The concept of separation of powers seems to confuse you. If CIA agents have broken Italian law, they ought to be tried. If the Italian government or secret services helped them, they ought to be brought up on conspiracy charges.

 

[Kevin_Lowe]

The Italians simply do not know how these things are done.

They should kidnap the alleged CIA kidnappers and torture them in a secret location, like a civilised nation.

 

[Elind]

The Italians simply do not know how these things are done.

They should kidnap the alleged CIA kidnappers and torture them in a secret location, like a civilised nation.

Always the smartass. Good to know there is some stability in the universe.

 

[Elind]

The concept of separation of powers seems to confuse you. If CIA agents have broken Italian law, they ought to be tried. If the Italian government or secret services helped them, they ought to be brought up on conspiracy charges.

I don't think so. You seem confused by the issue.

Why then don't those judges opposed to the war in Iraq (or any military action anywhere) also file political charges against each and every member of the military that served in those actions? Same difference; they are all agents of their government.

As to the Italians who may have participated, that is a different matter altogether. It's one of internal discipline if they exceeded their authority.

 

[geni]

I don't think so. You seem confused by the issue.

Why then don't those judges opposed to the war in Iraq (or any military action anywhere) also file political charges against each and every member of the military that served in those actions? Same difference; they are all agents of their government.

I don't think it is illegal under italian law to go to war with Iraq. It is illegal to kidnap people and after the whole Mordechai Vanunu thing I suspect they may be a little sensertive about such things.

 

[Nick Bogaerts]

As to the Italians who may have participated, that is a different matter altogether. It's one of internal discipline if they exceeded their authority.

Do you consider your own government, and its services, to be above the law?

Here's the English translation of the thirteenth article of the Italian Constitution:

Personal liberty is inviolable.

No form of detention, inspection or personal search is admitted, nor any other restrictions on personal freedom except by warrant which states the reasons from a judicial authority and only in cases and manner provided for by law.

In exceptional cases of necessity and urgency, strictly defined by law, the police authorities may adopt temporary measures which must be communicated within forty-eight hours to the judicial authorities and if they are not ratified by them in the next forty-eight hours, are thereby revoked and become null and void.

All acts of physical or moral violence against individuals subjected in any way to limitations of freedom are punished.

The law establishes the maximum period of preventative detention.

 

[Elind]

I don't think it is illegal under italian law to go to war with Iraq. It is illegal to kidnap people and after the whole Mordechai Vanunu thing I suspect they may be a little sensertive about such things.

I agree that they have reason to be sensitive if this was actually done without any coordination.

My point remains unaddressed; that this is obviously something between governments, not a case for civil/criminal courts.

 

[Elind]

Do you consider your own government, and its services, to be above the law?

Please read the questions. That's my whole point. This is not a government to government issue at present.

 

[geni]

I agree that they have reason to be sensitive if this was actually done without any coordination.

My point remains unaddressed; that this is obviously something between governments, not a case for civil/criminal courts.

The individuals are unlikely to have diplamatic immunity so it is a matter for the courts.

 

[fishbob]

That's my whole point. This is not a government to government issue at present.

What factor or condition would make it govt to govt?

 

[Elind]

The individuals are unlikely to have diplamatic immunity so it is a matter for the courts.

Gimme a break. Address the issue please. The CIA are US government agents.

 

[Elind]

What factor or condition would make it govt to govt?

Take a wild guess.

 

[Melendwyr]

Gimme a break. Address the issue please. The CIA are US government agents.

It is extraordinarily difficult to make people subsumed into a larger organization feel morally responsible for their actions. Individual agents must be made to question their orders.

 

[geni]

Gimme a break. Address the issue please. The CIA are US government agents.

So? Should your civil servants be immune to prosicution?

A couple of mossad agents were arrested and prosicuted in new zealand a while back.

Unless you have diplomatic immunity you are just like any other foreign national.

 

[Elind]

It is extraordinarily difficult to make people subsumed into a larger organization feel morally responsible for their actions. Individual agents must be made to question their orders.

What do you know of what questions were asked and what answers were given?

Just curious, since you seem so knowledgable.

 

[Elind]

So? Should your civil servants be immune to prosicution?

A couple of mossad agents were arrested and prosicuted in new zealand a while back.

Unless you have diplomatic immunity you are just like any other foreign national.

You persist in missing the point. Perhaps someone else will get it.

 

[Nick Bogaerts]

Please read the questions. That's my whole point. This is not a government to government issue at present.

Once upon a time, there was a Frenchman called Montesquieu. Montesquieu had a big idea called the separation of powers. One day, the Italians needing a new constitution, decided that Montesquieu was a clever fellow and separated the judicial and prosecution services from the executive (the government).

Therefore, when a crime is commited on Italian soil, a magistrate may issue an arrest warrant against the suspected criminals. The Italian magistracy is independent from the Italian government. The government does not have the authority to decide whether criminals shall be prosecuted or not. Therefore, it is not, and cannot be, a 'government to government issue'.