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It doesn't make sense that most Holocaust deniers are anti-Semitic

1337m4n

Alphanumeric Anonymous Stick Man
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I was having a talk about conspiracy theories with my brother the other day. He pointed out how most Holocaust deniers are anti-Semites, and explained why this didn't make sense:

Think about it: if you're a Holocaust denier, but you hate Jews, you're basically saying "It's a lie that six million Jews were ever killed, but, dangit, they certainly deserve it".

Are me and my brother the only ones confused by this ideology? If you hated Jews, why on Earth would you want to believe--against all evidence--that nobody's killed them on a mass scale?
 
I was having a talk about conspiracy theories with my brother the other day. He pointed out how most Holocaust deniers are anti-Semites, and explained why this didn't make sense:

Think about it: if you're a Holocaust denier, but you hate Jews, you're basically saying "It's a lie that six million Jews were ever killed, but, dangit, they certainly deserve it".

Are me and my brother the only ones confused by this ideology? If you hated Jews, why on Earth would you want to believe--against all evidence--that nobody's killed them on a mass scale?

Seriously?

Spend some time on the denier sites and it will become clear.

The "Holohoax" has been "used" by the evil joos to further their march toward a NWO and global domination by garnering sympathy from the world for the tribulations of the 3rd Reich (and others). The very existence of the state of Israel is clear evidence of this.

ref: Protocols of the Elders of Zion

/sarc
 
If you hated Jews, why on Earth would you want to believe--against all evidence--that nobody's killed them on a mass scale?

It's simple. Jew-haters want to fuel hatred towards Jews today. The murder of 6 million Jews in the 1940s does nothing for this "cause"; in fact it does the opposite.

The only way for the Holocaust to work in their favour is for the Jews to have faked the whole thing in order to fool everyone and create the state of Israel.

The part where they say "the Jews deserved it" is just the real sentiment busting through in the form of a fall-back position: "they faked the Holocaust...but if it was true then they certainly had it coming."

I've seen the same "logic" displayed by some Muslims regarding 9/11: "America staged 9/11....and they deserved it because of their foreign policy." HUH????
 
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It does make sense.

nizkor.org said:
The cynical truth comes to us by way of an obscure extremist group, which boasts:
"The real purpose of holocaust revisionism is to make
National Socialism an acceptable political alternative again."

About that group, the "National Socialist White People's Party".

These types deny the crimes of the Nazis because they want to get the chance to repeat them.
 
I believe they are just denying them the significant sympathy derived from the Holocaust and other historical events. If the sympathy is stripped, then there is no barrier to demmonizing them.
 
Holocaust denial has its history itself, at least in germany.

Starting right after WW2 there was not much room to deny anything what obviously has happened. There were not too much jews left in the camps and every german noticed in the war jews just were "transported for labour" in the east - now they knew what that meant.

After all there were a lot of germans who had their assumptions. My Grandmother worked 1943 at a station and watched the trains full of jews coming from France and Netherlands. She was forbidden to give something to eat or water to the people in the trains ("Don´t give them anything, they will kill each other for just a piece of bread").
Once my Grandmother asked the engine-driver what would happen to all these people because it didn´t made sense to her sending children and old people to work in the east.
The driver told her "They all will be gased!" and my granmother never spoke about this until 2002, short before she died. Her husband helped jewish neighbours years before to get out of the country to the Netherlands. All of them but one was killed. It is quite possible, that some of that family were in one of these trains my grandma watched. I think there are a lot of germans who could tell you a similar story.

Many germans knew, more could know but decided not to look closer.

When the war ended there were confessions of the holocaust by people like Höss (commander in Auschwitz), Ohlendorf or Bach-Zelewski (commanders of "Einsatzgruppen") and Hitler himself in his political Testament.
There was the "wansee-protocol", the goebbels-diarys and many documents found later.

Even the raging antisemite Julius Streicher had no doubt in the Nurenberg Trial that the Holocaust had happened. Of course he denied knowledge of it (and that might be true) but he did not doubt it.

There were some discussions about numbers, but not that much. It was clear to everyone at that time, that the crime would be not less gruesome counting its victims 4 or 6 millions.
Maybe some germans didn´t believe (or didn´t want to believe) every detail, but all in all they knew it was true.
The first books, denying the holocaust were written by a Scotsman Ratcliffe and a french antisemite Bardeche afak.

Members of the SS and others tried not to deny the holocaust but to explain it. Hitler made his prophecy to the "weltjudentum" what would happen if "it" would start a war - extermination.
There was a motive of revenge, they tried to compare the shoa with the bombings of civilians in germany and so on.
Eichmann, while in Argentinia, did his interview with Sassen just to explain what he did - not to deny it. He was even somewhat proud.
Of course (and interesting enough I had this discussion a few days ago with german antisemites) there is some "logic" in killing all jews if you are mad enough to believe german propaganda. There is always some inner logic in madness. For some germans jewish people deserved their destiny and right after the war these germans were willing to tell so.
For years it was not uncommon to say
"After all their influence was huge in media"
or
"there were too many jewish bankers/doctors/lawyers in that time".

Even Max Domarus, the editor of Hitlers speeches and author of a biography wrote in "Hitler. Reden und Proklamationen" which is a standard until today

"Jews weren´rather popular in germany in normal times also. They had something that would evoke disapproval. They were importunate and had some special habits, for example in sexuality." (I know it´s a bad translation - if you wanna try it yourself start Vol I, p.35)

After a while, in the time of Adenauer, there was not too much interest in that subject. Nobody wanted to ask questions, listening to "old stories" or look deeper in the past - there was a new war at hand, a cold one with new frontiers and new allies. There was a growing economy and money to make.

This changed somewhat in the 60´s when Eichmann was captured and the Auschwitz-trials at Frankfurt/Main started. Holocaust became a story again, young germans began asking their parents "What did you do in the 3rd Reich?", students challanged their teachers/professors - this movement became the german version of 1968 and, of course, it was far left and talked about revolution. There was a lot of anger against the parent´s generation.

Interesting enough after that there was the first wave of really holocaust-denying literature in germany - Roth, Butz, Rieger of course Harwoods "Did Six Million Really Die?"

Now there was some willingness to believe in germany, after the huge attack from the far-left on that subject arguments shifted somewhat form "Don´t mention the holocaust!" to "What holocaust?"

Right after the war nobody would have buyed that story, in the 50´s nobody wanted to hear anything about it, in the 60`s there was a denouncemnt of a whole generation, there was holcaust everywhere including Vietnam and in the 70´s the real denial began.

Besides: Given german laws at that time it was much more easier to deny it than to approve it!
This may have played a role too.

All I was writing about was west-germany. In the GDR this was another story. In communist germany there were no nazis at all, ordered by the gouvernment and of course propaganda. All nazis lived in western germany, so there was no really need for a discussion in society like in the FRG in the 60´s.
On the other hand the FRG disliked Israel a lot - there was a possibility to be antisemitic and a good citizen. It was not popular to broach that issue.


Today Holocaust-denial is forbidden by law in germany so it is not discussed in german forums. Germans modern neo-nazi-partys advise their members to avoid any discussion about that subject.

A german-speaking nazi site made a poll with more than 1.100 participants -

66 % believe there was no holocaust at all,

39 % say "yes, there was a holocaust"
(12% don´t believe in the hoax at all, 27% say it was not as bad as told)
http://forum.thiazi.net/showthread.php?t=12662

The denying fits well in the argumentation of the german neo-nazis.
"Jews control this, Jews control that, Jews everywhere and no wonder they tell you there has been a holocaust. That´s how far they go! How would that be possible if Jews didn´t control this and that? And we pay for it until today."



Sorry for the english, I hope you got the idea.
(And I got the point)
 
Jesus, I wish I spoke a foreign language as well as you speak English, Henry. Excellent post.
 
Are me and my brother the only ones confused by this ideology? If you hated Jews, why on Earth would you want to believe--against all evidence--that nobody's killed them on a mass scale?
It's not a question of whether Jew-haters want to believe it. It's a question of what they think they can accomplish by convincing people of it.

More specifically, they want to guide people through roughly the following points of view, the last of which is what they believe themselves:

- "I have nothing against Jews, but some aspects of the holocaust ought to be reconsidered."
- "Some aspects of the holocaust ought to be reconsidered, but certain Jewish-controlled organizations are actively preventing it."
- "Jewish-controlled organizations are everywhere I look and are keeping me down."
- "Jews are a threat to my existence and must be destroyed."
 
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Are me and my brother the only ones confused by this ideology? If you hated Jews, why on Earth would you want to believe--against all evidence--that nobody's killed them on a mass scale?

CHF pretty much nailed it on the head.

In order to keep demonizing Jews, Nazis have to sustain the original premisse of their ideology that lead to the Holocaust in the first place: "Jews are sneaky and control everything behind the scenes, and if nothing is done about it, they will control the world ".

The problem is that during the Holocaust, the Jews were the victims, they weren't all powerful and didn't control everything. They got killed by the millions. The world saw the horror for what it was: the Nazis were the oppressors and the monsters. So in order to remain the victims of the evil Jewish conspiracy, Nazis have to deny the Holocaust ever happened, so that the Jews are still the ones in control of everything, so that they keep being the menace, and therefore the Holocaust becomes one more of the sneaky things the Jews have concocted.

It's pretty much the same with the Jihadists and 9/11. According to them, they are the victims of the American and "Zionist" oppressors. But on 9/11, America was shown to be powerless, and defenseless, which contradicts their ideology of the all-powerful and omnipotent evil America. So America must have been behind it...

So the operative word for Denial, is that you have to keep being the victim, no matter what.
 
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Holocaust Denial is not about the Holocaust, just as 9-11 Denial is not about 9-11. Both are about what happened after the event. Holocaust Denial is about denying the need for Israel, 9-11 Denial is about denying the need for the Patriot Act and the Iraq War. Note that you can deny the need for those without engaging in historical revisionism.
 
Holocaust Denial is not about the Holocaust, just as 9-11 Denial is not about 9-11. Both are about what happened after the event. Holocaust Denial is about denying the need for Israel, 9-11 Denial is about denying the need for the Patriot Act and the Iraq War. Note that you can deny the need for those without engaging in historical revisionism.

I want to echo the idea that skeptics of 9/11 Denial are supporters of the Iraq War; it's a false choice between believing fanatic Muslims attacked the U.S. and that the Iraq War was a necessay action after the attacks. I'm against the Iraqi Occupation, but have only a few lingering questions regarding 9/11. What purpose does it serve for Truthers to conflate the two other than to demonize skeptics?
 
Thank you much for the German perspective on Holocaust-denial, Henry. And I wish the twoofers who come to this forum wrote such clear and understandable English.

The Holocaust deniers deny the holocaust so that their own racism will seem less repugnant. "Hitler wasn't that bad, and our white nationalism would not be such a bad thing, if, by joining with us in over-throwing the existing government, we get the boots of our Jewish oppressors off our necks."

I, for one, am not buying it. Hitler was a monster, and all anyone who wants to try a do-over of the Third Reich, this time in America, will get nothing from me but a round of 149 grain, steel-cored FMJ.
 
Holocaust Denial is not about the Holocaust, just as 9-11 Denial is not about 9-11. Both are about what happened after the event. Holocaust Denial is about denying the need for Israel, 9-11 Denial is about denying the need for the Patriot Act and the Iraq War. Note that you can deny the need for those without engaging in historical revisionism.
I agree. I'm opposed to all of the examples you mentioned, but for different reasons from the conspiracy theorists.

I'm against the state of Israel, not because I have no sympathy for the Jews (just the opposite in fact) but because if Israel were about justice then it really ought to occupy the better half of Germany. But Israel was never about justice, it was about the fulfillment of biblical prophecy, which therefore makes it about insanity. Many Christians support Israel, not because they CARE about the Jews, but because according to the doomsday prophecy, the Jews must be in power in the Holey Land in order to usher in the Apocalypse-- which of course involves the final destruction of the Jews! Ironically enough, their support of Israel is anti-Semitic at its core.


Also, Henry's post was a good read. Nicely done.
 
I used to believe Dachau used homicidal gas chambers and that people were convicted at Nuremberg based on this until I read on the Simon Wiesenthall website that the gas chambers there were never used for that purpose.

Now I don't know what to think.
 
I'm against the state of Israel, not because I have no sympathy for the Jews (just the opposite in fact) but because if Israel were about justice then it really ought to occupy the better half of Germany. But Israel was never about justice, it was about the fulfillment of biblical prophecy, which therefore makes it about insanity.
That's part of it, but not the only reason. I don't think Israel would have been founded if the Holocaust hadn't happened. The other problem is that Israel exists now, so being "against the state of Israel" doesn't make too much sense unless you want to deport them all.

Many Christians support Israel, not because they CARE about the Jews, but because according to the doomsday prophecy, the Jews must be in power in the Holey Land in order to usher in the Apocalypse-- which of course involves the final destruction of the Jews! Ironically enough, their support of Israel is anti-Semitic at its core.
While I've heard of this, I think it's the view of an extreme fringe.

Sorry for the derail, but that was a bit too heavy to leave it unanswered.
 
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