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Israeli Apartheid?

gumboot

lorcutus.tolere
gumboot
Joined
Jun 18, 2006
Messages
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Okay, apologies for starting yet another Palestine/Israel thread. The subject of this thread is very clear, and I will be quite strict in reporting any posts that step outside the topic.

In numerous threads, the accusation is made that Israel is conducting a system of apartheid. I have never lived in Israel, and have little information about "life in Israel" so I would like some insight into this matter. This is not a thread to discuss the war in Gaza or any other war, nor is it a thread to bash Arabs or Muslims or Jews or any where else. There are ample mud pits available in this forum for that purpose.

Now, to be absolutely clear, the crime of apartheid was defined in 2002 as:

Inhumane acts of a character similar to other crimes against humanity "committed in the context of an institutionalized regime of systematic oppression and domination by one racial group over any other racial group or groups and committed with the intention of maintaining that regime."
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Anticipating a flood of irrelevant cites, I want to make a few things absolutely clear:

1) Israeli apartheid can only occur in Israeli territory. This includes both the state of Israel, and any territory at the time permanently occupied by the state of Israel as claimed (either legally or illegally) as part of the state of Israel.

2) It cannot apply to foreign territory including the Palestinian territories of Gaza and the West Bank (except for settled areas as established above).

3) For the purposes of this thread any territory for which Israel is the occupying power (in the context of the laws of armed conflict) will be considered Israeli territory.

4) Isolated incidents of Israeli mistreatment of others will not be accepted. The definition specifies a "institutionalised regime of systematic oppression". Evidence will need to be provided of official Israeli policy and action.

5) Action taken against belligerents during armed conflict will need to be assessed against the laws of armed conflict, which allow for circumstances outside those of "peace time".

6) Armed conflict will be taken to apply only to major military offensives (such as the 2006 invasion of Lebanon and 2008/9 invasion of Gaza) and not to the sustained level of low-intensity border skirmishing that typifies the situation in Palestine/Israel.

7) Terrorism spikes such as the intifada's will not, for this purpose, be considered a major military offensive.

Examples of actions that would qualify:

-Prohibition on political parties representing the interests of the target group
-Restrictions on movement against the target group
-Segregation of the target group in public places (Buses, toilets, etc)
-Legislation that discriminates against the target group
-Systematic bias by the authorities against the target group (police, courts, etc)
-Restrictions on land ownership and other "free enterprise" activities against the target group
-Withholding rightful citizenship from persons belonging to the target group

Examples of actions that would not qualify:

-Blockading a foreign territory
-Prohibiting political parties representing the interests of foreign anti-state groups
-Discrimination against rightful non-citizens/residents
-Waging armed conflict against a foreign territory

If anyone can provide examples of this sort of thing I would be most grateful. Links to some sort of confirmation of the claim would be appreciated, such as a third party report, media article, official statement, etc.

Some of you probably feel I am narrowing the parameters to reject examples you consider apartheid, however the point I wish to make is that the crime is a very specific action, and it is not acceptable to throw it about to label any action you disagree with.
 
1) Israeli apartheid can only occur in Israeli territory. This includes both the state of Israel, and any territory at the time permanently occupied by the state of Israel as claimed (either legally or illegally) as part of the state of Israel.
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What exactly is Israeli territory? Israel has not yet declared it's borders.

To say that a defined section of land within the Israeli borders is not a part of Israel, and so therefore there is no apartheid doesn't really work for me. Transkei was considered a part of South Africa, even if SA claimed it wasn't.
 
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Transkei was a bantustan and therefore a dependency. So it would count according to Gumboot's point #3 regardless of what South Africa claimed.
 
I will spell this out as clearly as I can.

Israel itself, is NOT an Apartheid state. Non-Jews have full civil rights. There is, however, widespread discrimination against Arabs and Muslims in the private sector of society, including businesses, housing, employment, education, etc.

Now, as far as the West Bank is concerned...this IS an Apartheid regime.

There are seperate roads for Jews and Arabs. Seperate towns. Seperate schools. Seperate cities. Everything is seperate.

As far as the condition of these seperate things? One cannot even compare. The quality of life of Jews is waaaay better then the Arabs.

Until the formation of the Palestinian Authority, Israel had one laws for the Jews..and one law for the Arabs.

Israel refused to issue permits for Arab building. They would demolish Arab construction in the name of "defense" when it was only for building Jewish homes.

Israel also FORBIDS Arab Israeli citizens from living in the Jewish settlements..which are paid for by the tax dollars of ALL citizens!! They pay taxes..but cant live there. Nice.

So....with all these restrictions..with all this discrimination....Israel does indeed treat the West Bank like an Apartheid state. Though they dont call it "Apartheid". Its called Hafrada.
 
a_unique_person said:
What exactly is Israeli territory? Israel has not yet declared it's borders.

To say that a defined section of land within the Israeli borders is not a part of Israel, and so therefore there is no apartheid doesn't really work for me. Transkei was considered a part of South Africa, even if SA claimed it wasn't.
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The actual territories have varied over time, so for example if someone were to present evidence of apartheid in Israeli-occupied territories of Gaza prior to September 2005 this would be accepted because at the time this constituted part of the Israeli territories. However similar evidence after September 2005 would not be acceptable as Israel no longer occupied the territory.

In terms of establishing Israel proper (as opposed to occupied territories or illegal settlements) from 1967 onwards I would use the 1949 Armistice Lines as the border.

Of course, any territory lying inside Israel proper is automatically part of Israeli territory.

I hope that answers your question. :)
 
parky76 said:
Israel itself, is NOT an Apartheid state. Non-Jews have full civil rights. There is, however, widespread discrimination against Arabs and Muslims in the private sector of society, including businesses, housing, employment, education, etc.
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Thanks for the response. This would tend to suggest not government discrimination, but discrimination by individual citizens. Would you be amble to cite some examples of what sort of thing happens? Is it universal across Israel, or more prominent in certain areas?

Also, what measures has or does the government take to protect the rights of minorities? Not discriminating is only half of a government's duty of course. Do they have laws prohibiting this sort of discrimination? If they do, are they enforced?

Thanks.


parky76 said:
Now, as far as the West Bank is concerned...this IS an Apartheid regime.

There are seperate roads for Jews and Arabs. Seperate towns. Seperate schools. Seperate cities. Everything is seperate.

As far as the condition of these seperate things? One cannot even compare. The quality of life of Jews is waaaay better then the Arabs.

Until the formation of the Palestinian Authority, Israel had one laws for the Jews..and one law for the Arabs.

Israel refused to issue permits for Arab building. They would demolish Arab construction in the name of "defense" when it was only for building Jewish homes.

Israel also FORBIDS Arab Israeli citizens from living in the Jewish settlements..which are paid for by the tax dollars of ALL citizens!! They pay taxes..but cant live there. Nice.

So....with all these restrictions..with all this discrimination....Israel does indeed treat the West Bank like an Apartheid state. Though they dont call it "Apartheid". Its called Hafrada.
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Thanks again for your response. Can you please cite some evidence for the above. Please bear in mind anyone can claim or say anything they want. I am after evidence. :)

In particular I am interested in the points where Jewish Israeli citizens in the West Bank are treated differently to other Israeli citizens. This would be an incredibly damning point against Israel.

Thanks in advance.
 
gumboot said:
Thanks for the response. This would tend to suggest not government discrimination, but discrimination by individual citizens. Would you be amble to cite some examples of what sort of thing happens? Is it universal across Israel, or more prominent in certain areas?

Also, what measures has or does the government take to protect the rights of minorities? Not discriminating is only half of a government's duty of course. Do they have laws prohibiting this sort of discrimination? If they do, are they enforced?

Thanks.





Thanks again for your response. Can you please cite some evidence for the above. Please bear in mind anyone can claim or say anything they want. I am after evidence. :)

In particular I am interested in the points where Jewish Israeli citizens in the West Bank are treated differently to other Israeli citizens. This would be an incredibly damning point against Israel.

Thanks in advance.
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fact #1. Israeli Arabs CANNOT move to the settlements. that is ethnic discrimination. but if they convert to judaism..they can move there. this is not democracy.

fact #2. israel did not...EVER...approve building permits for palestinians. but they approved them for israelis.

fact #3. israel takes years...years...to remove illegal jewish housing. remove illegal arab housing? they just send in a dozer.
 
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gumboot said:
Now, to be absolutely clear, the crime of apartheid was defined in 2002 as:

Quote:
Inhumane acts of a character similar to other crimes against humanity "committed in the context of an institutionalized regime of systematic oppression and domination by one racial group over any other racial group or groups and committed with the intention of maintaining that regime."
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By that definition, might it be claimed that Hamas, Fatah, etc. etc. etc, have been conducting a system of apartheid? :D
 
gumboot said:
In numerous threads, the accusation is made that Israel is conducting a system of apartheid. I have never lived in Israel, and have little information about "life in Israel" so I would like some insight into this matter.
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There was a recent thread by FireGarden in which much of this was already discussed - both about the Territories as well about the treatment of Israeli Arabs.

gumboot said:
1) Israeli apartheid can only occur in Israeli territory. This includes both the state of Israel, and any territory at the time permanently occupied by the state of Israel as claimed (either legally or illegally) as part of the state of Israel.

2) It cannot apply to foreign territory including the Palestinian territories of Gaza and the West Bank (except for settled areas as established above).

3) For the purposes of this thread any territory for which Israel is the occupying power (in the context of the laws of armed conflict) will be considered Israeli territory.
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I'm not clear now to which territories your quest applies. (2) says the West Bank is out; however, as I read it, (3) seems to say the West Bank is in, as it is the occupying power.

A quick survey what happened. The Green Line is still the internationally recognized border of Israel. In 1967, Israel conquered Gaza, West Bank, East Jerusalem and the Golan. Around 1980, Israel unilaterally annexed Golan and East Jerusalem. However, it had by that time redrawn the borders of Jerusalem so that it was vastly enlarged (map). Around 2000, Israel started building the Wall, which runs through the West bank and (a bit) through enlarged East Jerusalem (map). Israel has built a lot of Israeli settlements on the West Bank; the large settlement blocs in the west lie "west" of the Wall, but there are numerous settlements "east" of the Wall. There is also a separate road network "east" of the Wall which is only open to Israeli settlers and the IDF. All these areas are off-limits for WB Palestinians. There are also numerous cases where the Wall separates WB Pals. from their own land, so there are also WB Pal. areas "west" of the wall. Moreover, a large strip land along the Israeli/Jordanian border - with the exception of Jericho - is classified as military and off-limits to the WB Pals too. Part of the WB Pal. settlements are administered by the PA, but it is still under ultimate control of the IDF.

So, the territory Israel controls can be divided into:
  • Israel within the Green Line
  • Gaza
  • West Bank and East Jerusalem, divided in:
    1. East Jerusalem within the 1967 borders
    2. Extension of East Jerusalem, divided in:
      • area "west" of the Wall
      • area "east" of the Wall
    3. Rest of the West Bank, divided in:
      • Israeli settlements "west" of the Wall
      • WB Pal. settlements "west" of the Wall
      • Israeli settlements "east" of the Wall, including the Israeli-only roads
      • WB Pal. settlements "east" of the Wall administered by the PA
      • Other WB Pal. settlements "east" of the Wall
      • the military area along the Jordanian border
  • Golan

So, which areas do you want to discuss and why?

ETA: by "west" of the Wall I mean those areas that lie on the Israeli side of the Wall, including those areas containing Israeli settlements that have been entirely walled off.
 
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parky76 said:
fact #1. Israeli Arabs CANNOT move to the settlements. that is ethnic discrimination. but if they convert to judaism..they can move there. this is not democracy.

fact #2. israel did not...EVER...approve building permits for palestinians. but they approved them for israelis.

fact #3. israel takes years...years...to remove illegal jewish housing. remove illegal arab housing? they just send in a dozer.
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Yes, you've already said that. I'm looking for some sources. Thanks.
 
gumboot said:
The actual territories have varied over time, so for example if someone were to present evidence of apartheid in Israeli-occupied territories of Gaza prior to September 2005 this would be accepted because at the time this constituted part of the Israeli territories. However similar evidence after September 2005 would not be acceptable as Israel no longer occupied the territory.
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According to many (myself included) Israel is still the occupying power of Gaza. But that aside: in point (1) you stated:
This includes both the state of Israel, and any territory at the time permanently occupied by the state of Israel as claimed (either legally or illegally) as part of the state of Israel.
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and Israel has never claimed either Gaza or the West Bank as part of the state of Israel (with the exception of Greater Jerusalem). The source of confusion about what you count and don't count is therefore obvious.

gumboot said:
In terms of establishing Israel proper (as opposed to occupied territories or illegal settlements) from 1967 onwards I would use the 1949 Armistice Lines as the border.
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As everyone does.

With this explanation - which I previously overlooked - look back at my post #11. The fact alone that I had to sum up 9 different areas in the WB and East Jerusalem says enough, doesn't it?
 
ddt said:
According to many (myself included) Israel is still the occupying power of Gaza. But that aside: in point (1) you stated:

and Israel has never claimed either Gaza or the West Bank as part of the state of Israel (with the exception of Greater Jerusalem). The source of confusion about what you count and don't count is therefore obvious.
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Okay let's be clear, though the OP was clear enough.

Israeli territory would include:

1) Israel's sovereign territory as established by the Green Line.
2) Permanent Israeli settlements outside the Green Line.
3) Areas for which Israel is the occupying power under the Laws of Armed Conflict.

I really cannot be any clearer than that. And I do not claim to dictate what specific territory any of this would apply to. I am well aware that this changes - for example Israel previously had settlements in Gaza, qualifying under 2), but removed them, however has now moved military forces into Gaza and qualifies for parts of Gaza under 3).
 
Fiona said:
http://mondediplo.com/2003/11/04apartheid

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2006/feb/06/southafrica.israel
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ddt said:
There was a recent thread by FireGarden in which much of this was already discussed - both about the Territories as well about the treatment of Israeli Arabs.
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ddt said:
Maybe the Israeli Committee Against House Demolitions has some background on this?

ETA:
Read their Campaign against Apartheid paper.
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Oliver said:
http://images.google.com/images?sou...uggestions&resnum=0&ct=property-revision&cd=1

ETA:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hafrada
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Thank you for all the links. I shall read up. On brief glance, it appears FireGarden's OP dealing with "harfrada" relates to the separation of Israel from Palestinian territories, which in itself doesn't consitute apartheid. I see FireGarden also brought up the topic of South Africa creating bantustans. However, this does not compare to Israel/Palestine as far as I can see because the separation of Palestine/Israel was an action by the international community, not an action by a previously entirely contiguous Israel attempting to expel Arabs.

What would be most useful, and most valuable, would be information about Israeli discrimination against Israeli Arabs.
 
gumboot said:
Yes, you've already said that. I'm looking for some sources. Thanks.
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if you had been paying any attention to the Israel/Palestine conflict over the last 20 years..you wouldn't NEED any sources.

go to Meretz
go to the Gush Shalom
go to the New Israel Fund
go to Americans for Peace Now
go to the Association for Civil Rights in the Occupied Territories

its all there my friend. I didnt just pull these things out of my @$$.
 
This thread has some useful information on the topic in question. It moves on from the two political parties to other discrimination such as marriage laws.
 
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