Israel/Palestine...One last posting

[Hutch]

Here beginneth the rant....

I say one last rant because I have not posted on those threads for some time now and intend not to do so in the forseeable future (with the exception of this thread, if I am so inclined).

Rant one is with all that is going on in the world, the extraordinary amount of attention paid to a backwater part of the planet that has no natural resources worth mentioning and with a very limited population base, when issues such as N. Korea, the development of large male-dominated populations in India and China, the potential changes due to global warming (man-made or natural), the shooting in Taiwan and the effect of the proposed Referendum, et. al., get much less attention...it is, as the King of Siam said, A Puzzlement.

Rant two, when you break it all down, the crux of the Israel-Palestine conflict rests on two basic questions, one for each side. You can (and in Z-N's case, I lay 90-10 he won't be able to resist)post any number of links about what the other side is or isn't doing, but it still comes down to this:

For Israel: If we withdraw to the 1967 borders (or something close to them), empty the settlements, share Jerusalam, come to an agreement on the right-of-return, will the GUARANTEE peace with the Palestinians or just a place where those dedicated to our destruction can operate freely?

For Palestine: If we disarm the radicals, stop all bombings and attacks, and make no aggressive moves towards Israel, will we get the 1967 (or close to it) borders, a share of Jerusalam, and at least some negotiation on the right-to-return or will the Israeli settlements in what many there call Judea and Samaria continue to mulitply and grow while Israel drags out negotiations forever?

The Non-Government Israelis and Palestinians who worked out a plan (with borders and answers to Jerusalam and the right to return) in the past year are probably on the right track...but until BOTH sides can overcome the basic questions above and trust one another sufficiently, it will not come too pass. I must needs fear that neither Sharon or Arafat impress me as men who can make this sort of leap.

Time will tell.

Here endeth the rant....

 

[davefoc]

Hello Hutch,
I am sorry this thread didn't get more response.

I didn't respond because I just felt like I didn't have anything to say about the situation that I hadn't said before but I thought your two questions summarized the situation just about as well as it was possible to do in those few words.

I think the answer to your first question is that regardless of what Israel does there will be some violence against it for the forseeable future. The fact is that a combination of its actions plus the continuous drumbeat of antisemitic propaganda by arab leaders trying to create a scapegoat for their failings would cause violence to continue even if tomorrow Israel acted to remove itself from Palestinian territory and all the arab propagandists stopped making a scapegoat out of Israel.

I think, that even those of us that think that Israel should cease and reverse its territorial expansion goals must acknowledge this. It is my hope that overtime the violence would fade away as Israel makes genuine efforts to treat the Palestinians fairly, but I understand the views of some Israelis that Israelis should do nothing until Palestine can guarantee absolute peace which of course can't happen so essentially the status quo of violence and Israeli occupation of Palestinian territory seems likely to continue.

For me, I think there is a real possibility that the fuel that continues to allow this chain of violence to continue is the US. The US needs to withdraw from this situation. I think that our lack of credibility in the Arab world because of our inability to act as a fair arbiter in Israel colors everything we do in that part of the world. The popular discontent against US actions in the Arab world is a very dangerous situation and the US for its own self interest and in my view the interest of fairness must begin to disengage from the Iraeli Palestinian conflict.

 

[varwoche]

For Israel: ... come to an agreement on the right-of-return

Right of return will not happen, even under the rosiest scenario. Just as Palestinians will not cede Jerusalem.

 

[zenith-nadir]

Re: Re: Israel/Palestine...One last posting

Some people are into the talmud and the bible, I am not.

But I do know that Jewish archeological record predates islamic archeological records when it comes to the area we now call the west bank and Israel. We also know that the Jesubites, Philistines, Assyrians, Babylonians, Persians and Romans all had lived in the area and battled with the Hebrews.

That history took place centuries before the Islamic invasion in 638-691 A.D. The earliest Islamic monument on earth, Al-Quds, or the Dome of the Rock in Jerusalem, was originally built as a church by the Christian Byzantines during the first quarter of the 7th century.

Then the Arabs lost the land to the Turks, the Turks lost the land during the Crusades, the Christians lost it to the Mongolians, the Mongolians lost it to the Turks, the Turks lost it to the French, the French lost it to the Turks, the Turks lost it to the British. That is basically the 'ownership' history of the west bank and Israel from 638 A.D. to 1946 A.D.

Then after WW2 the United Nations passed Resolution 181, November 29, 1947, which partitioned "palestine" into an Arab state and a jewish state. 33 countries of the world accepted the deal while Afghanistan, Cuba, Egypt, Greece, India, Iran, Iraq, Lebanon, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Syria, Turkey and Yemen rejected the deal.

The day after the British pulled out, May 15 1947, without negotiation, the Arab armies of Egypt, Syria, Jordan, Iraq, Saudi Arabia and Lebanon invaded day old Israel. See the quote "Drive the jews into the sea".

What happens in wars? People flee the fighting.

The jewish civilians had nowhere to go. A large portion of jews living in 1947 Israel were either born there, had just arrived from Europe or were just recently expelled from their homes in Arab countries.

The Arab civilians had a different choice, they could stay and fight the jews or they could go to Egypt, Lebanon, Syria and Jordan to wait out the fighting. So many left their homes on their own to wait out the war. Other arabs became victims of the war and suffered at the hands of the jews, while others didn't fight and they and their decendants now make up 20% of the population of modern Israel.

The Arabs lost the war. They tried to destroy Israel again in 1956 and lost. They tried again in 1967 and lost again. So the Arabs thought to try something new. When direct confrontation didn't work the PLO was invented and Arafat was made it's leader and a continued terrorist campaign against Israel began.



In conclusion:

You cannot go back in a time machine and unring the U.N. resolution 181 bell. Only Anwar Sadat and King Hussein of Jordan could accept that reality. Arab leaders today still cannot accept that reality. That is why Egypt and Jordan are the only arab countries on earth to have a peace treaty with Israel.

And who's caught in the middle? The Palestinians. They are caught between Arafat's and the arab world's desire to destroy Israel and the guns of the Israeli Defence Forces.

Once the Arabs accept Israel, and admit to their people that they have to accept Israel I believe a new page in history will be turned.

 

[demon]

My Roadmap:

Israel should withdraw to its legal borders. If, after it has done this, it continues to be attacked then it should be given the full support of the international community and a UN-administered demilitarized zone should be established around its entire border. Personally, I doubt that there would be any further attacks because there are very few people "committed to israel's destruction".

People should answer this question: why doesn't Israel end its occupation? Do you think that the occupation increases Israel's security? If you don't, ask yourself why it is maintained (of course, those of us who are familiar with the internal Israeli government record know what the purpose of the occupation is). You cannot expect the Palestinians to cease "aggressive" acts against Israel since the occupation is an ongoing aggressive act. Every day that it persists, Israel is aggressing towards the Palestinians.

Incidentally Hutch, if we're going to disarm Palestinians, why not the Israel?