Israel itself is a mistake - Richard Cohen

[DaChew]

"The greatest mistake Israel could make at the moment is to forget that Israel itself is a mistake. It is an honest mistake, a well-intentioned mistake, a mistake for which no one is culpable, but the idea of creating a nation of European Jews in an area of Arab Muslims..."

Washington Post: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/07/17/AR2006071701154.html

This is some very interesting history. I did not know that Jews did not live in the area we now refer to as Israel until it was mistakenly created. You know, with as many times as Jerusalem is mentioned in Jewish texts, you'd think that at least a few of them would've lived there. I guess I must have been fooled by the way they built some of their temples to look really old.

 

[chocolatepossum]

Where does he say there were no jews in the area occupied by Israel before his creation?

It's actually quite a poor article, in that he fails to explain why the creation of Israel was a mistake at all.

 

[The_Fire]

And aren't there a rather large christian society down there? not everyone with dark skin is a muslim yaknow.....

 

[andyandy]

what a poor article.....looks like he finished his article a couple of hundred words early, and just cut and pasted a couple of paragraphs on Jewish history to meet his quota....

 

[DaChew]

Where does he say there were no jews in the area occupied by Israel before his creation?

It's actually quite a poor article, in that he fails to explain why the creation of Israel was a mistake at all.

He says that Israel was created of European Jews in an area of Arab Muslims. It most certainly was not an area of Arab Muslims. It was an area that included large numbers of Arabs - both Muslim and non-Muslim AND Jews AND Christians AND others as well. Cohen is helping to perpetuate the myth that the area referred to as Palestine (though it never existed as a country) was soley populated by Arab Muslims. This is demonstrably untrue and Cohen knows it.

 

[chocolatepossum]

In his defence, the quote in the OP does go on to recognise that not all arabs are Muslims.

The greatest mistake Israel could make at the moment is to forget that Israel itself is a mistake. It is an honest mistake, a well-intentioned mistake, a mistake for which no one is culpable, but the idea of creating a nation of European Jews in an area of Arab Muslims (and some Christians)

 

[chocolatepossum]

He says that Israel was created of European Jews in an area of Arab Muslims. It most certainly was not an area of Arab Muslims. It was an area that included large numbers of Arabs - both Muslim and non-Muslim AND Jews AND Christians AND others as well. Cohen is helping to perpetuate the myth that the area referred to as Palestine (though it never existed as a country) was soley populated by Arab Muslims. This is demonstrably untrue and Cohen knows it.

Hmm, OK. I took him to mean simply that it was a bad idea to create a state for european jews in a predominantly muslim (and anti-semetic) arab area. I didn't get the impression he was denying the presence of any native jews living in pre-Israel palestine.

 

[Kerberos]

Where does he say there were no jews in the area occupied by Israel before his creation?

It's actually quite a poor article, in that he fails to explain why the creation of Israel was a mistake at all.

Or exactly why it matters if it is. I mean let's say that we all agree that creting Israel was a mistake, what then? Do we tell the Jews living there that "sorry we'll need you to move, we realize that most of you lived there all your life, but we need you to move now, sorry for the inconvinience". Yeah that's gonna work. Whether the creation of Israel was a mistake or not, is a question with no relevance to the present situation.

 

[Skeptic]

"The greatest mistake Israel could make at the moment is to forget that Israel itself is a mistake. It is an honest mistake, a well-intentioned mistake, a mistake for which no one is culpable, but the idea of creating a nation of European Jews in an area of Arab Muslims..."

So, essentially, Cohen's point is that the Arabs are genetically pre-pogrammed to be genocidal racists: they simply cannot help themselves, but just have to attempt one genocidal attack after another on the jews, simply for them having a state that is jewish instead of Arab or Muslim.

I think this is rather insulting to Arabs and Muslims, isn't it?

I suppose Cohen is for reestablishing segergation in the USA, too: the silly idea of letting darkies live in neighborhoods where white people lived... come on! Obviously, if they white people then try to kill them, simply for not being white, well, that just proves it was a mistake for them to move there in the first place.

As for the creation of israel "in an area of Arab Muslims"... well, the jews tried to create a jewish life in an area full of civlized Europeans, but 2000 years of prosecution culminating in the holocaust coinvinced some of them, for some reason, that that's not a good idea.

Of course, at the time, the like of Richard Cohen were justifying the Nazis by explaining patiently to the jews that the biggest mistake they can make is to forget that european jewish civlization is a mistake. It is an honest mistake, a mistake nobody is to blame for, but they just have to realize that Streicher and Goebbles are right, and that there is no room to establish a jewish, Asiatic civlization in the midst of Christian, European people. Why don't they listen to the good sense the Nazis are talking, and just go back to Palestine, where they came from and truly belong?

Anyway, I, for one, think that the biggest mistake Richard Cohen can make at the moment is to forget Richard Cohen himself is a mistake. He is an honest mistake, a well-intentioned mistake, a mistake for which only his parents are culpable, but the idea of creating another upper-middle-class white American in a world where the money and resources he uses up could feed a whole village of starving Africans was surely unjustified.

(See? Playing "I can prove your existence is a mistake" is easy!)

 

[Skeptic]

He says that Israel was created of European Jews in an area of Arab Muslims. It most certainly was not an area of Arab Muslims. It was an area that included large numbers of Arabs - both Muslim and non-Muslim AND Jews AND Christians AND others as well. Cohen is helping to perpetuate the myth that the area referred to as Palestine (though it never existed as a country) was soley populated by Arab Muslims. This is demonstrably untrue and Cohen knows it.

Not only that, but the reason the Arab world is now mostly Muslim--after centuries of having significant jewish and Christian minorities--is that the Muslim Arabs, since the 1950s, engaged in continuous intimidation, slaughter, and persecution of non-Muslims, making most of them flee to Europe, israel, or the USA.

And that, children, is how the Muslim Arabs got the "moral high ground" of complaining against a jewish that spoils seamless perfection of the judenrein countries around it.

 

[DaChew]

So, essentially, Cohen's point is that the Arabs are genetically pre-pogrammed to be genocidal racists: they simply cannot help themselves, but just have to attempt one genocidal attack after another on the jews, simply for them having a state that is jewish instead of Arab or Muslim.

And we all (The U.N. and western powers) should have known that.
This continuation of Cohen's logic wasn't something I was going to point out but it is part and parcel of his argument.

 

[Meadmaker]

I actually think the premise, that creating Israel was a mistake, makes sense. I think it was a mistake. However, it happened, so I was waiting to hear Cohen's suggestion. And here it was:

The smart choice is to pull back to defensible -- but hardly impervious -- borders. That includes getting out of most of the West Bank -- and waiting (and hoping) that history will get distracted and move on to something else.

Huh? Rich, you lost me with that one. He spent part of the article talking about the implacable and growing hatred of Israel by its neighbors, but he thinks if they just lay low that history will get distracted? It just doesn't seem very likely.

My problem is that I think the situation is basically hopeless. I don't see any way out for Israel, ever.

 

[hgc]

...
Huh? Rich, you lost me with that one. He spent part of the article talking about the implacable and growing hatred of Israel by its neighbors, but he thinks if they just lay low that history will get distracted? It just doesn't seem very likely.

The very phrase "history will get distracted" is the stupidest thing I've ever read or heard in my entire life. How far up one's kiester does one need to insert one's head to think up something like that?

 

[webfusion]

No Way Out

meadmaker:

I don't see any way out for Israel, ever.

So, what else is new?
http://www.ujs-online.co.uk/education/jewishhistory/hasmoneanrevolt
From the time of the Seleucids...

 

[Skeptic]

Of course, perhaps israel listening to the advice of people like Cohen about what to do is might not the brightest idea in the world. I mean, if I told you you have no right to live and your very existence is wrong, would you go to a doctor I recommended?

Don't you think that Cohen first telling israelies they must realize their very existence is a mistake and then demanding that they listen to his sage advice about how to run the country is the height of hutzpah?

And they say that that's an israeli quality...

 

[Darat]

...snip...

Huh? Rich, you lost me with that one. He spent part of the article talking about the implacable and growing hatred of Israel by its neighbors, but he thinks if they just lay low that history will get distracted? It just doesn't seem very likely.

My problem is that I think the situation is basically hopeless. I don't see any way out for Israel, ever.

I'm of the opinion that hey given hindsight the creation of Israel could have been handled a tad better, but then given hindsight most things could have been handled a tad better. As for "was the creation of Israel a mistake?" Who has the slightest idea - it's much too early to say. (Don't forget in the UK we still have people arguing that the creation of the UK was a mistake and that happened over 200 years ago!)

As for the future - well I'm of the opinion the more Israel looks after itself the better, Palestine shouldn't be its concern.

In regards to the current conflict - my conclusion is moving toward considering the response as being, to use that horrible word, "disproportionate" and I think it may perhaps even prove to be counter productive to the security of Israel. However I do think Israel had to take some military action when it was attacked within it's own borders, I don't think "we" would expect another country to not retaliate.

 

[Mycroft]

I'm of the opinion that hey given hindsight the creation of Israel could have been handled a tad better, but then given hindsight most things could have been handled a tad better. As for "was the creation of Israel a mistake?" Who has the slightest idea - it's much too early to say. (Don't forget in the UK we still have people arguing that the creation of the UK was a mistake and that happened over 200 years ago!)

As for the future - well I'm of the opinion the more Israel looks after itself the better, Palestine shouldn't be its concern.

In regards to the current conflict - my conclusion is moving toward considering the response as being, to use that horrible word, "disproportionate" and I think it may perhaps even prove to be counter productive to the security of Israel. However I do think Israel had to take some military action when it was attacked within it's own borders, I don't think "we" would expect another country to not retaliate.

I don't mean this as a criticism of you personally, Darat, but I think the problem with the whole disproportionate response meme is it implies that Israel is justified in making a defense, just not an effective defense. It's as though it's expected that Israel should have to tolerate the existence of enemies bent on their genocide because any action that might tip the status quo in their favor is disproportionate. It's not enough that we recognize their right to retaliate if we don't also recognize their right to win.

I see groups like Hamas, the Al-Aqsa Martyr’s Brigade, and Hezbolla as being essentially the same as the Ku Klux Klan on steroids. They are that evil, and their existence shouldn’t be condoned by anyone, much less tolerated by the target of their racist hatred.

 

[BPSCG]

Cohen:

the idea of creating a nation of European Jews in an area of Arab Muslims (and some Christians) has produced a century of warfare and terrorism of the sort we are seeing now.

Ahmadinejad:

"Some European countries insist on saying that Hitler killed millions of innocent Jews in furnaces and they insist on it to the extent that if anyone proves something contrary to that they condemn that person and throw them in jail," IRNA quoted Ahmadinejad as saying.

"Although we don't accept this claim, if we suppose it is true, we ask the Europeans: Is the killing of innocent Jewish people by Hitler the reason for their support to the occupiers of Jerusalem?"

"If the Europeans are honest they should give some of their provinces in Europe - like in Germany, Austria or other countries -- to the Zionists and the Zionists can establish their state in Europe. You offer part of Europe and we will support it," he added.

It's nice to see that Cohen and Iran's Holocaust-denying president can find some common ground.

What an ass.

 

[punchdrunk]

I don't mean this as a criticism of you personally, Darat, but I think the problem with the whole disproportionate response meme is it implies that Israel is justified in making a defense, just not an effective defense. It's as though it's expected that Israel should have to tolerate the existence of enemies bent on their genocide because any action that might tip the status quo in their favor is disproportionate. It's not enough that we recognize their right to retaliate if we don't also recognize their right to win.

I see groups like Hamas, the Al-Aqsa Martyr’s Brigade, and Hezbolla as being essentially the same as the Ku Klux Klan on steroids. They are that evil, and their existence shouldn’t be condoned by anyone, much less tolerated by the target of their racist hatred.

Maybe Darat is saying that using "disproportionate response" gives credence, justified or not, to Hezbollah/etc. as resistance fighters against Israel as an agressor, and perhaps causes folks in the regions being bombed to join the cause of these groups, if for no other reason because they don't want be bombed anymore, and they blame Israel. I know I haven't put this very elegantly, but the point is, does "disproportionate response" actually alleviate the situation or make it worse, if not now, then down the road, in which case it may actually be less effective? I think Hamas, Hezbollah, etc. are evil too. The question is, is "disproportionate response" the best way to eliminate them?

For the record, I have no answer to that.

 

[Earthborn]

I don't mean this as a criticism of you personally, Darat, but I think the problem with the whole disproportionate response meme is it implies that Israel is justified in making a defense, just not an effective defense.

I think the point is that it has never been shown that actually is an effective defence. In all the time Israel has been defending itself this way, when did we see the results proving it to be effective?

It's as though it's expected that Israel should have to tolerate the existence of enemies bent on their genocide because any action that might tip the status quo in their favor is disproportionate.

This assumes that "tolerating the existence of enemies bent on their genocide" can't in itself be an action that might tip the status quo in their favour.

I see groups like Hamas, the Al-Aqsa Martyr’s Brigade, and Hezbolla as being essentially the same as the Ku Klux Klan on steroids. They are that evil, and their existence shouldn’t be condoned by anyone, much less tolerated by the target of their racist hatred.

Funny you mention the Ku Klux Klan. Seems to me that the US government largely tolerates its existence. What do you think would happen if the US government stops doing that and tries to get rid of them? I think the Klan would quickly try to stock up as much weapons as it can and fight back, and I don't see how that would improve the situation one bit.